Abel Ferrara Didn’t Let A Little Thing Like A Global Pandemic Get In The Way Of Making ‘Zeros And Ones’ With Ethan Hawke

Since making his feature film directorial debut in the ‘70s, Abel Ferrara has been a director whose work has always been worth a watch. Sometimes it’s because his work is startling and shocking, sometimes it’s because it’s visually fascinating, but over the course of the decades, he’s built a filmography that confirms him as a filmmaker who never fails to be interesting. Unsurprisingly, Ferrara is enough of an auteur that he didn’t let a little thing like a global pandemic slow him down, as proven by his latest motion picture, Zeros and Ones, which is available for purchase on all of your favorite streaming services even as you read this paragraph.

When Ferrara offered himself up for press to discuss the project, he selected Decider as one of the outlets worthy of his time, and we made the most of the opportunity: in addition to talking about Zeroes and Ones and collaborating with Ethan Hawke, we also chatted about his work with Willem Dafoe and Harvey Keitel, cult classics like Ms. .45 and Body Snatchers, and whether or not he butted heads with Michael Mann on Miami Vice and Crime Story.

DECIDER: You obviously made this film during the pandemic, but my understanding is that you actually had the idea for it well before that.

ABEL FERRARA: Well, it wasn’t the idea. I was thinking of an espionage film, I guess. Counter-espionage. The element of… [Hesitates.] I don’t know what I was thinking of! [Laughs.] But it wasn’t coming together. You know, I wasn’t pressing it. It was just an idea I had. Then I think during the pandemic… Because, you know, I was living in Rome and working on Sportin’ Life, and I was kind of walking back and forth to the editing room – semi-illegally, but it wasn’t far – and working remotely. But like everybody, I really experienced the lockdown and the experience of the city in such trauma. So I think that kind of put it together for me.

It definitely has a very claustrophobic feel at times, which I’m sure was at least partially the intent. I also loved when Ethan Hawke – as the brother – had his LSD-inspired breakdown, because…

[At this moment, I produced my copy of Woody Guthrie’s autobiography, Bound for Glory.]

Oh, all right! Okay, so you got all the references and what that was from.

Absolutely. Are you a Guthrie fan? Is that how that came to pass?

I mean, we used his song “Do Re Mi” when we did the documentary on… Well, actually, it was about the Piazza Vittorio, the location we shot in!

You and Ethan Hawke seem to be of like minds, cinematically speaking. Did you enjoy working with him?

Yeah, he was cool. I’ve known him a long time. You know, he’s one of these guys you know you’re gonna work with eventually, and this happened to be the eventuality. You know, he’s a guitar player, too.

I also enjoyed the way you positioned Ethan – as himself – to provide both a preface to the film as well as an epilogue. Was that something you’d plotted out ahead of time?

Nah, y’know, it’s one of those crazy accidents, you know? He just did that thing at the beginning to get the thing going, and… I don’t know, we’ve done it a couple of times before, so it just seemed natural, and then… I just felt like I needed to see him again. It’s kind of like the third Ethan. [Laughs.] You know, he’s playing the soldier, he’s playing the brother of the soldier… It just made sense.

When you put the film together, I know you said you wanted to do an espionage film, but did you have a particular vision for the message you wanted to tell? Or did you just kind of construct it on the fly because of the situation?

I mean, it’s like [Stanley] Kubrick said: films aren’t inverted pyramids built on one idea. So you kind of just… [Pauses] You know, we’re working on a lot of different things, a lot of different feelings and emotions and events and ideas that we wanted to see. And then you bring in the actors and the crew guys and everybody, they’re all bringing something to the table. And we’re exploring it all, whether it’s just in the light or by using a camera that’s in the film that’s in the action itself. All kinds of things. Knowing that we trust the process. I trust that if we all just keep being as open and focused as we can be, then at the end of the day, the film is going to be worthy of that.

Do you look forward to the return of some semblance of filmmaking normalcy post-pandemic?

[Snorts.] I’m looking forward to it, but I know it ain’t here now!

I wanted to ask you about a couple of things from your back catalog, one of which I didn’t know about until prepping for this conversation: you directed the video for my favorite Ben Folds Five song, “Don’t Change Your Plans.”

Oh, yeah. Wow, that was awhile ago!

I know you’ve directed a couple of videos over the years, but was that one a case where he came to you specifically?

Yeah, he reached out to me. He said he liked my work and if we could do it… He gave us the song, and it was one of those things where it came together.

Does Ben fall into your usual music tastes? Or if not, where do your tastes usually lie?

You know, like everyone, it’s the same shit we listened to when we were 15. Started with the Stones, and then once I got into them, I started getting into their influences. The bluesmen and all that.

When you look at your back catalog, is there a project that you feel like is the most underrated or that should’ve gotten more love?

All of ’em! [Laughs.] Nah, y’know, I’m happy we got ’em made at this point, really. And even early on! For us, getting a film together and making it… I know what it takes, so when we finish it, that’s really the satisfaction. Anything after that is gravy. At the end of the day, we got the film made, and it was the film we wanted.

You’ve worked with Willem Dafoe more than a few times. How did you and he first cross paths? Was it in New York?

Yeah, I know him from New York. He was in the Wooster Group, so we knew all about Willem. And then he was doing films, and he was a movie star, really, when we first got to see him downtown. I kind of met him, wanted him in a couple of things, and then we finally came together in New Rose Hotel. That was the first time.

And after we went through that – because, you know, the first time’s always a little rocky – we saw the film, we were cool, and we went on to do Go Go Tales. We both came to Rome, actually, at the same time, and that bonded us a little bit more. Then we started working together seriously.

Through the wonder of streaming, I’ve been able to revisit a number of your past films, but I also managed to see Body Snatchers for the first time, which I just thought was fantastic.

Oh, thank you. You know, Jack Finney’s “Body Snatchers” is… Well, it’s like [William] Gibson’s “New Rose Hotel.” Those are great short stories, really inspired pieces of material.

I also had a chance to watch Ms. .45.

Oh, really? [Laughs.] What’d you think of that?

I think it’s…a moment in time. More for the time in which it was made than for now. But it’s a very interesting historical artifact. How do you look back on it?

Well, again, I look back on it like I’m happy we made it. I look back on it fondly. It was something we did early on, and I’m proud of it.

How was the experience of working with Michael Mann on Miami Vice and Crime Story?

He’s cool. He’s like a mathematical directorial genius. [Laughs.] He comes at it from a different way than I did at the time. I learned a lot from him.

Yeah, he’s one of those guys who – much like yourself – has a very specific vision, which is why I was wondering if there was any sort of headbutting involved.

You know, he was hiring me, so I was just trying to figure out his game, you know? [Laughs.] But he was figuring it out himself, because Miami Vice… I mean, I was there at the very beginning. But, yeah, he had his vision, and I was just trying to execute it.

And Crime Story was an idea he’d wanted to do for a long time. Like, it was the kind of thing that he should’ve directed, in a way. So I was just trying to get it. These guys were all from Chicago, and they had their own take, all that interplay between the police and the gang. You know, the Italian guys.

But you had to try and figure out how you could approach… [Hesitates.] I mean, I was l looking at it as a movie, so it didn’t mean much to me, but in the back of my mind, I knew these guys had to be thinking about how to take that story and run with it for a couple of years. For me, I was just focusing in on it as a film rather than just the first 90 minutes. But it was a good experience, and looking back on it, I really learned a lot.

Lastly, I know people mention it to you all the time, but I loved your work with Harvey Keitel on Bad Lieutenant. It’s an iconic film.

Ah, thanks, Will.

Do you have a favorite experience from working with Keitel on that film?

Everything with Harvey is a favorite moment. [Laughs.] He’s one favorite moment after the other!

Will Harris (@NonStopPop) has a longstanding history of doing long-form interviews with random pop culture figures for the A.V. Club, Vulture, and a variety of other outlets, including Variety. He’s currently working on a book with David Zucker, Jim Abrahams, and Jerry Zucker. (And don’t call him Shirley.)

Where to stream Zeros and Ones