Jonathan Van Ness And Dax Shepard Share Tense Moment While Discussing Trans Issues On Shepard’s Podcast: “I’m Not Calling You A Transphobe”

Jonathan Van Ness and Dax Shepard got into a heated debate about transgender rights on a recent episode of Shepard’s podcast, Armchair Expert, that brought Van Ness to tears.

The debate began when Van Ness, a nonbinary reality star who uses all pronouns, said that The New York Times should not be considered a left-leaning publication anymore due to their recent coverage of transgender rights, which has been widely criticized. “They’re anti-trans, they platform multiple anti-trans people,” Van Ness said.

But Shepard disagreed, saying the publication was simply “challenging” the idea of gender-affirming care for teenagers: “Some people are very uncomfortable about teenagers transitioning. They’re challenging that. How do we know that person’s not gonna change their mind?” he said. “What if they kill themselves? And that’s really fucking permanent — that’s a good counterargument.”

Shepard continued, saying that people receive a “whiplash reaction” if they’re “critical” of trans rights. “To even question it makes you an enemy. I don’t think that’s the way forward,” he said.

“I feel like I’m talking to my dad,” Van Ness later said. They also pointed to the recurring topic of transgender athletes in right-wing media, saying that contrary to what these outlets say, transgender athletes do not have such an advantage in sports, and such misinformation poses a real danger to trans people.

“There’s a good chance that you’re being exposed to misinformation and disinformation,” Van Ness explained. “And a lot of the rhetoric around anti-trans inclusion and just the anti-trans backlash does have a lot of misinformation and disinformation in it.”

They later added, “I think if you aren’t personally impacted by an issue, for people who are, it just is a bit exhausting.”

Shepard continued pressing the issue, asking, “Do I wish that the trans woman athlete had access and could play and follow her dream? I do. Will I elevate her rights over women? We’re pretending that women aren’t the ultimate marginalized class throughout history.”

He later said that if he disagreed with even some points regarding transgender rights he would be placed in the “enemy category,” to which Van Ness disagreed. The reality star said it was “disappointing” to see people “think they’re really fighting for something” while excluding transgender children from participating in sports.

“I’m not filing you in an enemy category. Have whatever beliefs you want. Go for it,” they said, before later adding, “I’m a nonbinary fucking trans person. When I talk to my dad or people who say similar things, it’s hard to be cool through that.”

Van Ness continued, “I’m not calling you a transphobe. You can not be transphobic and still have thoughts that espouse trans misogyny and espouse transphobic ideologies or beliefs… Just like how I have to challenge biases about white privilege and make sure I’m not speaking over someone who is a person of color or a Black person if we’re talking about racism or police brutality.”

After having discussed the topic of transgender athletes for over 20 minutes, Van Ness said they chose to appear on Shepard’s show to talk about their podcast and new Netflix series Getting Curious. Shepard apologized for getting into the debate with Van Ness, saying, “I didn’t want that at all. I adore you. I think that you’re hysterical and talented and I love that you’re an activist.”

Van Ness began to grow emotional, saying they “could just cry” because of how “tired” they are of fighting for children.

“I wish that people were as passionate about little kids being able to be included or grow up as they were about fictitious women’s fairness in sports. I have to tell you I am very tired,” they said.

“I’m scared of the vitriol that trans people face everyday,” Van Ness stated.