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::News articles that are just discovering the facts (headliners of the days discovery) By this point we should be able to finf good sources that cover the topic as a whole. Just need to look for real sources and move the play by play stuff to the main article on this stuff as per [[WP:DETAIL]].--[[User:Moxy|Moxy]] ([[User talk:Moxy|talk]]) 02:32, 9 February 2018 (UTC)
::News articles that are just discovering the facts (headliners of the days discovery) By this point we should be able to finf good sources that cover the topic as a whole. Just need to look for real sources and move the play by play stuff to the main article on this stuff as per [[WP:DETAIL]].--[[User:Moxy|Moxy]] ([[User talk:Moxy|talk]]) 02:32, 9 February 2018 (UTC)
:::I think I follow. But if it's not encyclopedic, important or accurate while it breaks, [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Fox_News&diff=824712351&oldid=824712133 why even bother] summarizing and rearranging it? Just blow it completely out of existence if it seems a bit out of proportion, I say. Ask questions later. [[User:InedibleHulk|InedibleHulk]] [[User_Talk:InedibleHulk|(talk)]] 03:10, [[February 9]], [[2018]] (UTC)
:::I think I follow. But if it's not encyclopedic, important or accurate while it breaks, [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Fox_News&diff=824712351&oldid=824712133 why even bother] summarizing and rearranging it? Just blow it completely out of existence if it seems a bit out of proportion, I say. Ask questions later. [[User:InedibleHulk|InedibleHulk]] [[User_Talk:InedibleHulk|(talk)]] 03:10, [[February 9]], [[2018]] (UTC)

== Tucker Carlson white supremecist slogan ==

RE: [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Fox_News&diff=prev&oldid=825283199 this edit]:
The cited source states "'''Carlson was pushing forward a meme promoted by white supremacists, and he was doing so exactly as they had intended him to do it''' -- That seems to support the deleted text, that Carlson was promoting their slogan. Could those who disagree please share their think as to why this should not be in the article? [[User:SPECIFICO |<b style="color: #0011FF;"> SPECIFICO</b>]][[User_talk:SPECIFICO | ''talk'']] 18:39, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

Revision as of 18:39, 13 February 2018


Programming

I will post here what I've posted on Doglover159's talk page:

Wikipedia is not a TV guide, which is why I've reverted their edits. There is no need to list the personalities, either, since they are in the section below.

Corkythehornetfan 21:13, 27 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 5 July 2016

Amanda Carpenter and Mary Katherine Ham work at CNN as Contributors not at Fox News Channel. 64.39.87.98 (talk) 21:51, 5 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made.  B E C K Y S A Y L E S  17:52, 7 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

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Requested move 1 October 2016

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Move. After over 2 weeks, we have consensus that Fox News, which already redirects here as a WP:PRIMARYREDIRECT, is the WP:COMMONNAME. The hat note for Fox News (disambiguation) will remain for any readers who are looking for other topics. Cúchullain t/c 14:27, 18 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]


Fox News Channel → Fox News – Per WP:COMMONNAME. The previous move request failed due to WP:PRIMARYTOPIC arguments, which are invalid as long as Fox News is a WP:PRIMARYREDIRECT to this article. If consensus at this discussion is that this article is not the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC for "Fox News", the disambiguation page should be moved to the base title. SSTflyer 13:38, 1 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sure Fox News is the common name, but the primary topic is the channel. I completely agree with George Ho's comments in the last request. Corkythehornetfan (ping me) 17:37, 3 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Wrong http://www.foxnewsgo.com/--Moxy (talk) 19:22, 7 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
What's "wrong"? It says Fox News (Go). This is the actual home page —Musdan77 (talk) 04:40, 8 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
@Musdan77 Yes good link ..to the website ...but if you want to see the channel that's another thing ....as seen here . Perhaps this NEW article will help Fox & Friends Celebrates Fox News Channel's 20th Anniversary. Just like TMZ on TV vs -TMZ..- Moxy (talk) 05:05, 8 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The first link shows the schedule for the "channel". The second talks about the anniversary of the "channel". So, of course, it's going to use "channel". But that doesn't say that Fox News is not what is most often used as the name today. —Musdan77 (talk) 18:23, 8 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
RIghT! This article is about the "channel" so why would we name it after the website? Very odd RfC I think. -- Moxy (talk) 20:08, 8 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The website is named for what the channel is most often called now. In my opinion, the introductory sentence should say: "Fox News, also known as Fox News Channel (FNC),..." —Musdan77 (talk) 18:03, 9 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

I need clarification

So the 3rd paragraph in the "above the fold" section accuses Fox News of bias in favor of the Republican Party. Not disputing that, but why is there no similar accusation made on the pages of CNN; MSNBC; CNBC; CBS; etc.????

Wikileaks revelations have called into question the integrity of said organizations. Also many organizations inside and outside the USA have accused the aforementioned new services of bias.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Bondianwolf (talk • contribs) 20:24, 13 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

This page is for discussing improvements to this article. Alsee (talk) 05:16, 14 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Tucker Carlson

Hi, I'm new here, shouldn't "On the record" be replaced with Tucker Carlson Tonight in the Outlets\ Television section? Greta van Susteren was canceled and replaced by Carlson. JanJasinski (talk) 02:22, 16 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Controversy

Shouldn't the last paragraph on the introduction on Fox News being biased, be put into the Controversy section? Also, in MSNBC's introduction, there is no such criticism of the news network. Billybob2002 (talk) 00:13, 14 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Which is irrelevant. We have an entire article on Fox News controversies, several of which are about its bias.

The article on MSNBC controversies, also mentions bias. But whether it should be mentioned in the main MSNBC article, is a matter for that article. Dimadick (talk) 16:01, 15 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

You make a good point. I would encourage you to start an RfD to settle this matter. Marquis de Faux (talk) 03:02, 3 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

"Alleged" misrepresentation of facts

Using the title 'Alleged misrepresentation of facts' seem to be an WP:NPOV violation. Ironically enough it probably comes from a misguided attempt to apply NPOV. There is nothing 'alleged' about Fox new's frequent misrepresentation of facts, it is a verifiable, true and perfectly factual to state that Fox News has misrepresented facts on several occasions (the recent scandal over it's fake story about Sweden being a case in point). By saying "alleged" in Wiki-voice, we make it sound as if this is just an opinion, not an actual fact. Could anyone imagine us talking about the "alleged Holocaust", the "alleged Rwandan genocide" etc. NPOV is not about being neutral between fact and opinions, it's about representing facts in a neutral manner. That being the case, the "alleged" should be dropped, as it can easily be sourced that Fox News has misrepresented facts on several occasions. Jeppiz (talk) 18:21, 20 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

==================

From Ireland

Agree with above poster. This is the worst so-called news channel for factual news, thus far. Countless times we've noticed stuff they put out has had to be corrected and /or mysterious sources used that leads to never really getting to the core of something they report. Some of their guests (after the opposite being verified on other news channels, or it could be something you already know not to be true) are just as bad. One guest said that in Birmingham, UK, there were "No-go" areas...NOT true! That is just one of the many bewildering things they / some of their guests come out with. They come across to us as more opinionated in what they deliver / put their own kind of spin on it, more so than just reporting in a professional manner. Again, a couple of them (Sheppard Smith - don't know if that's spelt right) seem more centered and straight-forward in how they deliver.

We also noticed that some of their anchors (not all of them) come across as angry and calling the other party (or whatever - Democrats) things like "snow flakes" - or the "(insert some kind of insulting word here) leftists" and the likes. Just so unprofessional. We often look through them all - CNN, etc. and never see them calling Republicans names and the likes. They, along with some others, just present themselves more professionally and seem to get a certain item of news (not from some kind of mysterious "source".) but often from where it actually originated - and usually have access to actual docs they are referring to, and /or an actual guest who IS the source. Just seems more transparent / easier to verify what they deliver. Fox is generally just not like this.

There's a guy called Hannity (if memory serves us well) and he goes on like this. He is a total Gob-shite and also seems to have a negative, unhealthy obsession with Barrack Obama - even after he has left office. Took a short while for us to notice all of this about this news channel, when we started checking it out, some years back. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.18.180.228 (talk) 06:11, 18 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 12 March 2017

Change

to

References

  1. ^ Feldman, Josh (March 1, 2016). "Fox News Contributor Mary Katharine Ham Jumps to CNN, Makes Debut with Tapper". Mediaite. Retrieved March 12, 2017.

—216.249.253.191 (talk) 20:11, 12 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I'd recommend copying and pasting Ham's entry from this diff:
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?diff=769989945
—216.249.253.191 (talk) 20:16, 12 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Done — Train2104 (t • c) 05:53, 24 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 4 April 2017

Please add "citation needed" tag to mentions of "Fox News Group" in article, as there is currently no known reference to/confirming entity's existence. 2602:304:CEBF:8650:1995:CAEC:D28:5C3F (talk) 12:40, 4 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Done DRAGON BOOSTER ★ 13:18, 4 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Wrong name in the infobox

It's Brazil, not Brasil. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.43.74.233 (talk • contribs)

Already done by Niteshift36 (talk). regards, DRAGON BOOSTER ★ 16:44, 14 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia:Citation overkill

This article suffers from Wikipedia:Citation overkill.

Try to trim to max 3 cites at ends of sentences.

Observation: It appears that there are cases where more than 3 citations are effective for demonstrating the pervasiveness of behavior. Example: 5 unique instances of significant legal action against Fox News.

No need for 7.

That is Wikipedia:Citation overkill. Sagecandor (talk) 21:32, 28 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Donald Trump Wiretapping Claim

This section needs to be deleted or completely re-written. Firstly the claim that Napolitano was suspended for it is false, he was never suspended despite what the LA times editorial page may have claimed. And second the story about the British wiretapping for Obama is not a claim it was a confirmed fact by the wikileaks as a result of the Snowden whistelblowing regarding the project code named "Tempura" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.107.3.122 (talk) 11:29, 29 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Fox News Channel Pre-Launch Question

Did another network occupy FNC's satellite transponder prior to their official launch and if so what channel was it so I can added a Replaced to the InfoBox or was it simply an unused transponder?. YborCityJohn (talk) 19:22, 8 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Accreditation

Should we start listing news media accreditation information on Wikipedia pages? With all the hoopla over fake news these days, I think people should know which are actually accredited and which are not. It's a fairly straight forward process. Here's a link: http://ask.metafilter.com/65063/What-counts-as-an-accredited-news-publicationSnackattack68 (talk) 14:33, 3 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Fake news in the lead

diff. Shall we add that CNN is fake news too? They also have fake retracted stories that spawned lawsuits and mainstream coverage, including the NYT. As I have already mentioned in edit summaries, please see how retracted stories are treated in other articles. Saturnalia0 (talk) 04:55, 11 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The disputed text is that "Fox News Channel has been accused of [...] publishing fake news." The three sources attached to that text show that a former Fox News contributor is accusing Fox News of publishing fake news, so this is a cut-and-dried corroboration of the text in question. This is not just a retracted story; it is a lawsuit from an insider at Fox News who is explicitly accusing Fox News of publishing fake news, supported by multiple sources. Your random bringing up of CNN reeks of whataboutism. RetiredVet1946 (talk) 06:07, 11 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The CNN story I am referring (see the link) was a case of people accusing CNN of publishing a fake story, just as with Fox News, which was retracted, just as with Fox News, which generated a law suit, just as with Fox News, which got just as mainstream coverage saying it was false as the one by Fox News. Yet, you don't see that in the lead of the CNN article, not even on the controversies section, only in a "CNN controversies" article. Why? Because the story was retracted and life went on (except for the lawsuit, these things take time). Just as with Fox News. I'm not asking "what about CNN?" as a way to avoid discussing the subject, but rather to show you an example of how this is usually dealt with in other articles. Do you have any reason for the treatment to be different here? Saturnalia0 (talk) 06:32, 11 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The difference is that Fox News is being accused of publishing fake news by its own insider. RetiredVet1946 (talk) 08:23, 11 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
And how is that more relevant than the NYT and others, in the CNN case (which, by the way, also involved a dispute with one of their editors)? Saturnalia0 (talk) 08:49, 11 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
It is more relevant because it is an insider directly implicating the organization. RetiredVet1946 (talk) 09:49, 11 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I don't see how, and there was also, by the way, criticism (and a law suit) from an insider in the CNN case.Saturnalia0 (talk) 10:01, 11 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

As always, check the sources. I'm seeing two sources here, both from the Hollywood Reporter. By itself, that's probably not enough for the lede, though it can be put in the article text. Are there more sources to corroborate this claim? Volunteer Marek (talk) 07:39, 11 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

There are indeed three sources there; the USA Today article is in between the two Hollywood Reporter articles, so it's probably difficult to see in the large amount of text. There are three additional sources to corroborate the disputed text as well: one from NPR, one from NBC News, and another from the Daily Beast. The disputed text is overwhelmingly corroborated by sources. RetiredVet1946 (talk) 08:23, 11 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Sourcing is not the issue, the point is that the story was retracted and there is not much about it afterwards, apart from the lawsuit, exactly the same with the CNN case. This is definitively worthy of inclusion in a controversies section or article, but not on the lead, specially in the way it was worded. See also WP:RECENTISM. The tear gas stuff from CNN also made a lot of headlines, specially after the retraction, but... life went on. It's not making headlines 10 years after the fact, it's not worthy of lead inclusion. Will this be making? Saturnalia0 (talk) 08:49, 11 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Whether or not the story was retracted is not the issue. It is the fact that a formal accusation against Fox News was made by a Fox News insider; this is highly notable material. Just because the sources are recent does not automatically mean the disputed text is recentism. RetiredVet1946 (talk) 09:49, 11 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, it was made, and yes it's relevant for the criticism section. Something that happened a few days ago is relevant for the lead of a 20 year old company? Maybe, and although it may seem so given the amount of recent news, it's probably not, given the retraction and the nature of the controversy. If we were in 1998, the exact same case could be made for the Operation Tailwind scandal. Just because the sources are recent does not automatically mean the disputed text is recentism. that is not what I said.Saturnalia0 (talk) 10:01, 11 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
What differentiates Fox News from others is that its anchors and personalities regularly accuse other outlets of being fake news. The fact that Fox News itself has been accused of the same thing is what makes it more notable than others in this context. Thank you for your input. I will supply sources from farther back in time so that it is not just recent events. RetiredVet1946 (talk) 12:08, 11 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
We should handle the Fox controversies the same way we handle the Bush-service-record story in Dan Rather (which we refer to in the lede as "a disputed news report") and the staged gas tank explosions, indisputably "fake news", in Dateline NBC (which we don't even mention in the lede.) This rush to include every potentially damaging claim, five just from 2017 despite the organization's 20-year history, smacks of WP:RECENTISM and undue weight. James J. Lambden (talk) 16:21, 17 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Charlottsville coverage

Snooganssnoogans the text seems well sourced, but it doesn't really read as a controversy (apart from the last paragraph), moreso as a description of the coverage itself. I haven't checked the sources to see what they are saying, but if they do treat it like a controversy perhaps the text should better reflect that? Currently it reads like a description of the coverage and just one critical remark by a guy from CNN, on the last paragraph, which doesn't seem like a controversy from the reader standpoint IMO. Saturnalia0 (talk) 00:28, 17 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

We can't treat every article that disagrees with something someone said on Fox News as a controversy. Especially detailed descriptions that are not encyclopedia like "Fox News host Tucker Carlson also covered historical figures, such as Thomas Jefferson, Mohammed, Simon Bolivar and Plato, who owned slaves on his show, and said that individuals who wanted to remove confederate monuments would want to remove statues of Abraham Lincoln next.[144][145][147] A guest on Tucker Carlson's show equated individuals who want to remove confederate monuments to "Weimar thugs" and the Taliban.[145] A guest on Fox & Friends equated the confederate flag with the rainbow flag, saying they "represent the exact same thing," and the hosts of Fox & Friends did not provide a response to the guest's remarks." Marquis de Faux (talk) 02:31, 17 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The content is well-sourced, and the controversy is the whataboutist coverage and defense of Trump's rhetoric and the white supremacists. 10:58, 17 August 2017 (UTC)
But the text doesn't read like a controversy. It reads like "Fox News did this". Ok, so what? Where's the controversy? I'll see if I can get some time to read the refs in details this weekend and improve the text if it's not done by then. Saturnalia0 (talk) 20:36, 17 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
That's a good point; it's criticism not controversy. Regardless I don't think the criticism lasted more than a day or two which doesn't meet the standard of "lasting significance." James J. Lambden (talk) 03:32, 18 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
How exactly could any Wikipedia text read like a controversy??? On Wikipedia, all text should read like "X did this", not "X disgraced itself by defending white supremacists and attacking the people who stood up against the neo-nazis". Snooganssnoogans (talk) 11:07, 18 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
con·tro·ver·sy noun
disagreement, typically when prolonged, public, and heated.
As I said when I removed this section initially, it got hardly more than a day's coverage. If that were the standard this article would be hundreds of pages (screens?) long. The standard is enduring notability, which hasn't been demonstrated. James J. Lambden (talk) 18:38, 25 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
To elaborate on that definition, a disagreement becomes "prolonged" when the criticized party rebuts the criticism, when it's no longer just A disagreeing with B, but a disagreement between A and B. Needs some "back and forth", "tit for tat" or "ebb and flow" to be a proper controversy anywhere and needs independent coverage to be a noteworthy controversy on Wikipedia. If we parroted every tit that merely flowed forth without repercussion, most famous article subject would be swamped by one-sided steamblowing. Even the various Seven Wonders of the World, generally agreed as wonderful, have (and had) their haters. InedibleHulk (talk) 00:12, August 26, 2017 (UTC)

"Conspiracy theories" in lede

I removed conspiracy theories from the lede. Of the sources that supposedly support it [1] (in regard to Hillary Clinton's health) two don't call it a conspiracy theory [2] [3] and the third is a Vox opinion piece, not usable for statements of fact [4]. And if "Hillary's Health" isn't significant enough to be included in the body of the article (it isn't) it does not belong in the lede. James J. Lambden (talk) 00:06, 25 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Agree just horrible fact conclusion based on news headlines....would be nice if our editors could use academic sources...but some really think news bashed articles are ok.--Moxy (talk) 11:29, 25 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Obviously several other editors believe this is note worthy of inclusion. And despite what some claim it wasn't just a "one time thing".Volunteer Marek (talk) 19:36, 25 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I'm with Lambden in not seeing the claim in any of the four sources. At most, there's an implication among them, and even that only touches upon one theory. It'd be fair to say the network perpetuated the weakening of the Democrat candidate's image rather than perpetuated theories in general, and that's already part and parcel of "promoting the Republican party." InedibleHulk (talk) 23:32, August 25, 2017 (UTC)
It's in this source, this source, this source and a whole bunch more.Volunteer Marek (talk) 19:38, 27 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
There seems to an implication by Volunteer Marek that there are " several other editors" that have talked about this (I dont see that here). Perhaps best to get some others involved here....hard to promote a talk when the dispute tag is removed a few times. Thus far 3 have voiced a concern with the sourcing used for a blanket statement for the lead. --Moxy (talk) 19:48, 27 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Well, there are User:RetiredVet1946 and User:Snooganssnoogans just after a quick lookee.Volunteer Marek (talk) 19:52, 27 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

And to be clear, there's at least three conspiracy theories they've promoted and that's just off the top of my head. Clinton's health BS. Seth Rich murder BS. Protesters at Charlottesville paid by Soros BS. I'm pretty sure there have been more.Volunteer Marek (talk) 19:55, 27 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

All news outlets have had this said about them at one time or another ......adding 3 or 4 incidents to concluded a pattern that is not stated in the sources and in a wiki voice is a problem WP:SYNTHESIS Wikipedia:No original research/Examples There is also a MOS:INTRO and WP:BALASP problem.--Moxy (talk) 21:20, 27 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Have they? Volunteer Marek (talk) 21:26, 27 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

RfC about "Conspiracy theories" in lede

The following discussion is an archived record of a request for comment. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
There seems to be a snow consensus that the sentence has it's problems related to issues of due weight and shall be certainly excluded from the lead.Winged Blades Godric 06:51, 22 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Do the following news sources support the blanket lead statement "Fox News Channel has been accused of .....perpetuating conspiracy theories". Does this merit inclusion in the lead?

--Moxy (talk) 18:50, 28 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Survey

  • Oppose looks like WP:SYNTHESIS...not one mentions long term problem....cant add up news stories to state a fact WP:PROPORTION. --Moxy (talk) 18:50, 28 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • 'Oppose sure, they have been, but it's undue emphasis. DGG ( talk ) 08:55, 2 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose No, the sources are weak, and no, it certainly doesn't belong in the lede. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 11:37, 2 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose maintaining a sense of consistency in MOS and lede summaries is important. All of MSM is guilty of propagandizing, editorializing, and creating conspiracy theories, many of whom use "anonymous sources" that can't be verified - pundits are paid to push political agendas - MSM uses bait-click headlines as revenue generators. Have we consistently included such information in all the ledes of MSM articles? The lede is a summary of RS facts not a soapbox for criticism and the opinions of biased competitors. The latter belongs in the body of the article under "Reception", keeping UNDUE under consideration, and if the statement is likely to be challenged, use inline text attribution. Atsme📞📧 14:44, 2 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • oppose while Fox to me, as a foreigner, is a ridiculous channel and it's hard to imagine anyone taking them serious, the sources do not justify such a statement, especially in the lead. I hope you find some better sources. In the mean time, i watch an occasional item from Fox when I'm bored with comedy channel and i want a good laugh. But that's irrelevant here. PizzaMan (♨♨) 20:08, 4 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • oppose Undue emphasis for lead material with questionable sources. Marquis de Faux (talk) 22:14, 8 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Any three things can suggest a pattern, if you look at them consecutively. Might as well mention their fear of Halloween. InedibleHulk (talk) 18:35, September 12, 2017 (UTC)
  • Oppose - fails WP:WEIGHT. Seems an too rarely mentioned. An occasional complaint is said about any media, and occasionally 'conspiracy theory' is said about CNN, Washington Post, etcetera. I think all of them simply provide for their market niche, so instead I take it as POVs and any POV has some conspiracy theories. Markbassett (talk) 18:55, 16 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Threaded discussion

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Author shows bias - bad move to accept this, Wiki.

The third paragraph of the Fox News article reads, "Fox News Channel has been accused of biased reporting, perpetuating conspiracy theories,[6] and promoting the Republican Party.[7][8][9] Research shows that Fox News increases Republican vote shares among viewers.[10][11] Critics have cited the channel as detrimental to the integrity of news overall.[12][13] Fox News employees have responded that news reporting operates independently of its opinion and commentary programming, and have denied bias in news reporting.[14] The network has also been accused of permitting sexual harassment and racial discrimination by on-air hosts, executives, and employees, paying out millions of dollars in legal settlements.[15] The company is currently under federal investigation for its harassment settlements and other alleged misconduct.[16]"

The author has clear bias, as every major news channel has been similarly accused and has dealt with their own investigations. CNN and MSNBC have been equally accused of bias, but this is not stated in the opening of their articles. The above-noted section should be removed from the Fox News article; or this subject should be equally discussed for other networks in Wikipedia.

-Nicole Clune, September 10, 2017 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.79.64.146 (talk) 18:42, 10 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Nicole Clune. If you look at the discussion above this one, we were already discussing removal of 'conspiracy theories' when you posted. That portion has now been removed. However just because all networks have been criticized, does not make them equal. At Wikipedia we try, as best we can, to summarize information published by reliable sources. We try, as best we can, to stay out of debates about which side is right or wrong in various debates. One of the most noteworthy things about Fox News is how extensively reliable sources have described their reporting as biased and promoting the Republican party. Alsee (talk) 02:12, 13 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Hi,Alsee. Reliable sources also refer to how MSNBC's coverage of news is biased (toward liberal perspectives), and yet this bad news about MSNBC appears in one section, down in the body of the article. Our article on Fox News is vulnerable to accusations of political bias specifically because allegations of bias aren't dealt with in the same way when the cable news channel is MSNBC. That's the point Nicole Clune seems to be making, and it's a valid one. This disparity in how we present allegations against cable news networks seems to be politically-based and POV-pushing. The third paragraph needs to go, because it lends WP:UNDUE weight to allegations covered elsewhere in the article. loupgarous (talk) 05:07, 27 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
loupgarous, I have not studied the MSNBC article. Due weight says we cover things in proportion with depth and breadth of ReliableSource coverage. The depth and breadth of such coverage about FoxNews is rather extensive. If you are aware of an equal depth and breadth of ReliableSources addressing such concerns about MSNBC, then perhaps you should raise those concerns and cite those sources at the MSNBC article. Alsee (talk) 19:49, 27 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
We run into an source reliability issue here in that some of the many, many sources we have alleging Fox News has a political agenda have political agendas themselves. That includes some of the news outlets who are commercial competitors of Fox News. In our article on GMC trucks, we wouldn't consider using material published by RAM Trucks or Ford Motor Company as WP:RS to support statements about GMC's trucks unless we followed the guidance in WP:BIASED. I don't see us acknowledging that other news agencies and other people attacking Fox News have their own political agendas.
To cite a very recent example of this, what was once reported by most of the press as conclusive proof that the Trump campaign had Russian connections is now being downplayed as "opposition research" in the press, after material such as the "Trump dossier" has been revealed to have indirectly been paid for by the DNC - just one example of most of the press being WP:BIASED on a given topic.
The problem, of course, is we weight some accusations more than others in this article. I happen to believe that our article MSNBC is correctly written. I don't see how a reading of my previous statements could have led you to any other conclusion.
We're lending excessive weight to allegations of Fox News's political bias, not MSNBC's, and we ought to pare the sources we cite back to those scholarly articles which deal with all political bias in the press, such as the Social Sciences Journal article "Selective exposure to partisan media: Moderating factors in evaluations of the president" which makes statements regarding Fox News within the context of how other news sources like MSNBC also have partisan bias. That's the encyclopedic approach. What we have now is a partisan article which violates WP:NPOV by erecting a wall of text asserting Fox News' bias, essentially lending wikivoice to even the most biased sources' statements. loupgarous (talk) 17:48, 1 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
"what was once reported by most of the press as conclusive proof that the Trump campaign had Russian connections". Jesus Christ on stilts. If you're going to rag on "most of the press", you should actually bother to read the press. Literally every RS that covered the Steele Dossier hedged their coverage of the Dossier with repeated disclaimers that most of its contents were unproven. Way to go to discredit yourself. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 17:58, 1 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I did bother to read the press - and a disconcerting number of mainstream press outlets managed to, while citing disclaimers (thus covering themselves against actions for libel), repeat Steele's claims - giving them every bit as much public exposure as though they'd stood behind them. The Canons of Journalism deprecate such behavior. Going on to your language, if you can't observe WP:CIVIL, I understand The Daily Beast is recruiting. They would pay you to write that sort of attack. loupgarous (talk) 18:33, 1 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Republican Vote Share study in lead is undue

Talking about research about Fox News increasing GOP vote share does not seem like something that belongs in the lead. The lead already discusses bias, this is undue elaboration.

There are other studies for example, that found The Washington Post increases Democratic vote share, yet that study was kept in the body section of the Post article. Marquis de Faux (talk) 04:40, 18 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

If it were only one study and it didn't fit with any broader claims of bias, then yes, it would be undue. But what we have here are five studies in top econ and poli sci journals. These studies also fit with the broader claims of bias. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 09:46, 18 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
This isn't essentially about bias at all, it's an effect (real or imagined) on other people. Yes, that effect is associated with the Republican cheerleading aspect of the programming, but there's other stuff on that channel, too. Even the staunchest critics see it, sometimes. Colours, shapes, sounds, words and timing have all manner of persuasive effects (intentional or not). Potential or swing American voters only have two things to choose between. Absolutely anything can influence someone on the fence about absolutely anything.
The bit in the lead, as it's written today, is a comment (true or untrue) on American voters' quirks, not on FNC's. Don't let the titles of the sources and its placement in the article distort the claim itself. Studies don't "show" things, though, they suggest them. I'll change that much. InedibleHulk (talk) 06:46, October 20, 2017 (UTC)
Even if it is not about bias, it does not merit it being in the lead. Marquis de Faux (talk) 00:12, 9 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with this point. Whether or not you want to consider it biased, it still doesn't belong in the lead. Natureium (talk) 15:12, 9 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Should we call it conservative?

There are multiple reliable sources that refer to Fox as a conservative-biased news channel, including the following: *[5] "That Fox News is, consistently and across all of its programs, offering a conservative ideological voice and doing so under the heading of "news" is, at this date, an undeniable point."

  • [6] "Fox News primarily presents pro-conservative perspectives and very often reinforces conservative and Republican viewpoints, while MSNBC stresses pro-liberal perspectives."
  • [7] (page 4) "...Fox News and other American conservative media have served to marginalize scientists in general and climate scientists in particular."

Are these sources sufficient to explicitly say that Fox News is a conservative news channel, or should we still relegate this view to the status of an "accusation"? Everymorning (talk) 00:19, 23 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Yes. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 00:41, 23 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I ask because I previously added that it was a conservative channel to the first sentence, but this edit was undone. [8] But back then I was only using the first of these sources--maybe all 3 are good enough combined to support a flat-out statement? I would like to see "Yes"s from multiple editors before making this addition again. Everymorning (talk) 03:19, 23 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
No. Do we call MSNBC a liberal news channel? We don't (look it up), despite one of the sources Everymorning cites saying that MSNBC presents liberal perspectives in the same sentence that it says that Fox presents conservative perspectives.
My answers to Everymorning's questions are:
  • (a) We should stick with presenting these accusations under the heading "Controversies", subheading "Bias". The third paragraph in our article already violates WP:UNDUE by laying particular stress on the idea that Fox News is notably biased up near the lede, then once more where our article MSNBC deals with accusations of political bias, much farther down in the body of the article.
Not only should we not call Fox News "conservative" in the lede when we don't call MSNBC "liberal" in the same place, we ought to also delete the third paragraph to make our encyclopedic coverage of cable news channels more professional and even-handed. All that material is down in the body of the article, where similar material is in our article on MSNBC. The disparity in how we cover the two networks is a definite WP:POV issue - this article is spattered with POV-pushing by repeating the same allegations about FOX in ways we don't for other news networks.
In the interests of paralleling our coverage of Fox News and MSNBC, we ought to confine commentary on allegations of political bias in the same place in both articles. That would resolve the current WP:UNDUE issue and also shorten a much over-long article by only mentioning allegations of Fox News' bias and other misdeeds in one place, not two or three. At present, this article has strong evidence of POV-pushing against Fox. We ought to be paring references to allegations of bias against Fox News to the same level our article on MSNBC has, not adding still more. loupgarous (talk) 04:56, 27 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I'm interested in parallel coverage of things on about the same level, but the amount and persistence of shit FNC gets way exceeds that thrown at MSNBC or CNN. This results from their parent companies controlling more of the sphere, making the minority view look like the exceptionally and memorably weird one.
Reflecting the stance of the majority view is not an attempt to harm FNC further, but merely to indicate it's more frequently subjected to heavier attempts at harm. And this indication is not to suggest MSNBC or CNN's parents are underhanded, cruel or trying to silence dissent. It's just the way the media bubble works, at this point in actual history. Every battle has an underdog, and it's natural to view that side in a different context, with different words and focus. Helpful, too, for those interested in how things are going. Nobody cares about equilibrium, and inventing one where it doesn't exist is particularly unhelpful. InedibleHulk (talk) 11:00, October 27, 2017 (UTC)
At one time in relatively recent history, the "majority view" was that African-Americans were "the sons of Ham" and had slavery and discrimination coming to them. The majority view of gays and lesbians is similarly biased with very little evidence to support the adverse nature of that view. We don't lend wikivoice to those views, I've noticed.
We're not just reporting the majority view if we reproduce every instance in which it's reported. We're weighting our supposedly encyclopedic article Fox News in a way we'd never consider doing with Jews by citing remarks from every anti-Semitic source we could find and giving each one space in a wikipedia article. Sure, Fox News has a conservative bias. Once we've established that by the very best WP:RS we have, we can stop. I'd say that the Social Science Journal article Everymorning cited which says "Fox News primarily presents pro-conservative perspectives and very often reinforces conservative and Republican viewpoints, while MSNBC stresses pro-liberal perspectives." is a good place to start.
However, another article Everymorning cited to condemn Fox News, [[9] "That Fox News is, consistently and across all of its programs, offering a conservative ideological voice and doing so under the heading of "news" is, at this date, an undeniable point." is demonstrably false. Fox News has always had very vocally liberal commentators working for it, including Lou Dobbs, Juan Williams, Bob Beckel and Alan Colmes. Colmes has passed away, Beckel had to be terminated for racist comments, and Dobbs and Williams are still there, as is Andrew Napolitano, a fierce critic of both the George W. Bush and Barack Obama administrations, who works at Fox News despite his ardent criticism of both political wings' policies.
That's exactly the sort of statement, that if we include it, we ought to balance with opposing statements to avoid WP:UNDUE. We don't do that now and as a result, this article's a quivering mass of WP:UNDUE. loupgarous (talk) 18:18, 1 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Aye, when to stop kicking a political opponent is itself a controversial topic. No easy answers. Further research is needed. InedibleHulk (talk) 00:37, November 2, 2017 (UTC)
My objection to labeling it a "conservative" news channel is that other news channels are not labeled by their political leaning. This implies that Fox is biased (which it obviously is), but other channels are not (which is obviously incorrect). If you want to include the political leaning in the first sentence, it should be done for all news channels. Natureium (talk) 18:27, 1 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
That's because other news channels are not so over-the-top and so obnoxiously obvious about it. It's a difference between "leaning" and "taking a dive face down arms outstretched while singing Hallelujah". Volunteer Marek  18:33, 1 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
That's entirely your opinion. MSNBC is well known to have a leftist bias, and perhaps less well known but just as partisan is the New Yorker. Natureium (talk) 18:35, 1 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I agree: that implies a bias, and the bias should be noted if claimed in multiple RS. It should be included on this page and on other pages if reliably sourced and "due". And it is actually included on many other pages, see CNN controversies. My very best wishes (talk) 18:36, 1 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
But it's not noted in the first sentence of CNN. Of course an article on CNN controversies would list possible bias. Same as Fox News controversies. Natureium (talk) 18:39, 1 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Should CNN be defined as "liberal"? Not according to this chart, for example. My very best wishes (talk) 18:50, 1 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I'm having difficulty reading that chart because the dots are on top of the axis markers, but it appears to me (please correct me if you can read it better) that it is showing Fox and CNN as equidistant from the 0 point on opposite ends of the spectrum. Natureium (talk) 18:53, 1 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, according to this chart, Fox is not as conservative as some other media, so this could be a matter of personal judgement. Whatever other contributors think. My very best wishes (talk) 18:56, 1 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
A liberal newspaper such as the Washington Post is hardly an objective gauge of which other news sources are also liberal or conservative. The chart measures the Pew Research Center's assessment of how liberal or conservative the news sources' audiences are, which is at best an indirect measurement of their content.
Fox is markedly conservative, and was founded to be - in just the same way Huffington Post exists to provide liberal-biased commentary, and Current TV and Air America were. While MSNBC carries Morning Joe as a fig leaf to cover its tumescent liberal bias, I notice they also have Mika Brzezinski there making sure Joe Scarborough doesn't actually say anything of a markedly conservative nature without a prompt rebuttal - and according to our article on her, she and not Scarborough decides who their guests will be. Viewers of Morning Joe need never worry about a Trump spokesman like Kellyanne Conway disturbing their world view - Mika protects them from that. loupgarous (talk) 18:58, 1 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
That's not what the chart measures. And WaPo isn't particularly liberal. Centrist maybe. Volunteer Marek  19:16, 1 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The Washington Post article "Ranking the media from liberal to conservative, based on their audiences" says "Pew has basically taken the average viewer/consumer of all of these media outlets and plotted them on a continuum, trying to ascertain which outlets are favored by which side of the political spectrum." So the article's headline and lede paragraph contradict you. Sorry. loupgarous (talk) 19:25, 1 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Please read what you just wrote/quoted again. Volunteer Marek  19:29, 1 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Ah, I see. You changed "Washington Post" to "Pew Research Center" as I was typing my previous comment. Surprised we didn't get an edit conflict. Volunteer Marek  19:31, 1 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The level of fake news relied upon by certain editors indicates fundamental inability to recognize (much less practice) objectivity. For example,

  • Do we call MSNBC a liberal news channel? We don't (look it up)
  • we don't call MSNBC "liberal" in the same place

Yet per MSNBC (fourth graf of lede),

  • Commentators have described MSNBC as having a bias towards left-leaning politics and the Democratic Party.
  • MSNBC's prime-time lineup is tilting more to the left.
  • the channel's evening lineup "has clearly gravitated to the left in recent years …".
  • In 2011, Salon.com noted that "MSNBC’s prime-time lineup is now awash in progressive politics."

Therefore, certain haranguing statements are either amazingly clueless, or intentional outright lies,

Raises the issue, though, of why Rightists are so fearful of being identified as Rightists. Why the shame?
Weeb Dingle (talk) 22:54, 30 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

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Controversies

Why is the bulk of this article focused on "controversies" related to Fox News? This is undeniable overcoverage. Natureium (talk) 22:50, 10 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

A lot of it should be moved to Fox News controversies, yes. Marquis de Faux (talk) 01:52, 12 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 14 December 2017

You should REMOVE the statements concerning bias, whereas, ABC, NBC, CNN & CBS have been accused of bias, also. Only, you pitiful excuses for objectivity show bias of your own by only reporting accusations of bias against Fox. I have just viewed accusations against all aforementioned networks. And you want me to donate to you???????????????????????????????? 146.126.51.51 (talk) 13:08, 14 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Not done: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. —KuyaBriBriTalk 14:53, 14 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Described by Rupert Murdoch as "conservative"

http://www.businessinsider.com/rupert-murdoch-fox-news-sexual-harassment-allegations-largely-political-2017-12 

 "But that was largely political, because we're conservative," Murdoch continued. "Now, of course, all the liberals are going down the drain. NBC is in deep trouble. CBS, their stars."

Given that the owner of the network describes it as conservative, we should consider changing the description of the network to "conservative" rather than describing it as an allegation. Drsmoo (talk) 21:49, 21 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The allegations are about news bias. He doesn't say the news is biased, he's talking about the editorial stance. As the article says, Fox claims news and the editorial shows are separate. Marquis de Faux (talk) 22:39, 30 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
He said "we're conservative", there was no distinction brought up about news vs editorial in the article. Thats not how Rupert Murdoch described Fox News. He described it as conservative. Drsmoo (talk) 17:47, 1 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
In context, "we" sounds like management, not the network. Those behind it. Murdoch, Ailes and whoever investigates these sorts of things. That's not to say the on-air news or opinion isn't conservative, just doesn't say so here. "We" should be assumed to mean multiple people, by default. InedibleHulk (talk) 19:45, February 6, 2018 (UTC)

Controversy section

Think it's time to summarize the play by play sourced to news headliners and move most to main article. This blow by blow writing in not encyclopedic.--Moxy (talk) 01:17, 9 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

News headliners? InedibleHulk (talk) 01:35, February 9, 2018 (UTC)
News articles that are just discovering the facts (headliners of the days discovery) By this point we should be able to finf good sources that cover the topic as a whole. Just need to look for real sources and move the play by play stuff to the main article on this stuff as per WP:DETAIL.--Moxy (talk) 02:32, 9 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I think I follow. But if it's not encyclopedic, important or accurate while it breaks, why even bother summarizing and rearranging it? Just blow it completely out of existence if it seems a bit out of proportion, I say. Ask questions later. InedibleHulk (talk) 03:10, February 9, 2018 (UTC)

Tucker Carlson white supremecist slogan

RE: this edit: The cited source states "Carlson was pushing forward a meme promoted by white supremacists, and he was doing so exactly as they had intended him to do it -- That seems to support the deleted text, that Carlson was promoting their slogan. Could those who disagree please share their think as to why this should not be in the article? SPECIFICO talk 18:39, 13 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

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