Talk:Lauren Southern: Difference between revisions

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The following Wikipedia contributors may be personally or professionally connected to the subject of this article. Relevant policies and guidelines may include conflict of interest, autobiography, and neutral point of view. Lauren Cherie Southern (talk · contribs) / Lozza77 (talk · contribs) This user has declared a connection. (declared here; declared here) Vandelay451 (talk · contribs) This user has contributed to the article.

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Lauren Southern article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

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relevant to mention that mass shooters were inspired by her rhetoric and those around her https://www.splcenter.org/hatewatch/2019/03/15/new-zealand-terrorist-manifesto-influenced-far-right-online-ecosystem-hatewatch-finds https://thinkprogress.org/alleged-new-zealand-shooter-donated-far-right-group-steve-king-tucker-carlson-8fe73243ea88/ 2001:1970:5E26:F400:14A3:4C86:2012:567B (talk) 15:09, 11 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done. It's not clear what changes you want to make. –Deacon Vorbis (carbon • videos) 01:11, 12 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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That seems simple enough. It's probably her but in these times it might not be. Doug Weller talk 16:48, 22 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Which is fine, she should only have one account and that one clearly identifies her. Doug Weller talk 16:54, 22 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I have added the {{verified account}} template to her userpage, as she has confirmed that account belongs to her via OTRS and on Twitter. GorillaWarfare (talk) 17:44, 23 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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Multiple issues have been raised on the talk page by the subject of this BLP article, which I will attempt to summarize here:]

• Should the text "She has been described as alt-right and a white nationalist." be included in the first paragraph of the lede?
• Should the text "Southern is known for her promotion of the Great Replacement conspiracy theory [...] and is credited with helping to popularize the white supremacist conspiracy theory" be in the second paragraph of the lede?

There are sure to be additional disagreements, but these are the specific ones that have been brought up. Since this has become the subject of Poasts on twitter, I think the issue may benefit from broader community engagement. jp×g 08:11, 23 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

If you came here because someone asked you to, or you read a message on another website, please note that this is not a majority vote, but instead a discussion among Wikipedia contributors. Wikipedia has policies and guidelines regarding the encyclopedia's content, and consensus (agreement) is gauged based on the merits of the arguments, not by counting votes. However, you are invited to participate and your opinion is welcome. Remember to assume good faith on the part of others and to sign your posts on this page by adding ~~~~ at the end. Note: Comments may be tagged as follows: suspected single-purpose accounts: {{subst:spa|username}}; suspected canvassed users: {{subst:canvassed|username}}; accounts blocked for sockpuppetry: {{subst:csm|username}} or {{subst:csp|username}}.

• Comment: Since the last 24 hours have seen this talk page's view count go from 1-6 per day to 6400 (likely on account of Poasts), some basic explanation and reading might be condign for participants, shitposters, rubberneckers and others. Wikipedia is a volunteer-run project, and for the most part editors are not paid to contribute. That said, plenty of drama occurs here, especially about post-1932 American politics, about which the Arbitration Committee has issued standard discretionary sanctions (like how speed limits are lower in work zones; edit warring and POV editing are already not allowed, but they're extra not allowed about politics). And since this article is a biography of a living person, much tighter standards apply to it than to, say, Bradford Island. This does not mean that the subject gets to dictate its content; it just means that all the shit in it has to be cited to reliable sources. Are you still reading? Congratulations! Click those links if you want to learn more; they have lots of good shit in them, that it's important to read and understand before getting into arguments on Wikipedia. Anyway, this thing here is a Request for Comment, which means that lots of volunteers across the project will see it and make their way over to opine. Hopefully, the opinions they poast will be based on fundamental principles of the project, and not being extremely Mad Online. jp×g 08:32, 23 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment: Wording along the lines of "has been characterized in the media as..." would be more neutral than stating it directly in the encyclopedic voice. Benjamin (talk) 09:07, 23 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Everything on wikipedia is how "the media" characterises it, because wikipedia follows what reliable sources say, and reliable sources are media. Awoma (talk) 11:51, 23 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• To add on to this, there's two cases here: either the alt-right label is a fact, or it is a biased statement of opinion. In the former case, there's no need to add the qualifier, as Awoma already addresses. But even in the latter case, where the alt-right label is brought into question, using vague weasel words like "has been characterized in the media as" goes directly against WP:ATTRIBUTEPOV. The only two possibilities here are to state the label as a fact (e.g., "Lauren Souther is an alt-right ...", or to — Parent5446 ☯ ^{(msg email)} 16:21, 23 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• @Parent5446: Did that edit get cut off mid-sentence or something? jp×g 14:43, 23 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Woops that was a half-written draft I thought I had deleted. I ended up just a different comment below because I didn't feel strongly enough about this specific thread. — Parent5446 ☯ ^{(msg email)} 16:21, 23 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment The number of sources supporting "alt-right" and "white nationalist" is overwhelming. A google news search for Southern's name along with either term will return a torrent of results confirming this. As a result, I am not sure that "has been described as" is really necessary. Southern is alt-right and white nationalist, as myriad reliable sources attest. With regards the second point of contention, I think this is a poor wording. Sources support that Southern has promoted the conspiracy theory, and that she is a prominent advocate of it. However, I can't find anything calling her advocacy of the theory her primary claim to fame. As such, it is wrong to say she is "known for" this particular theory. She is known for her wider body of youtube content. I would support a change here which removes "known for" and simply says that Southern has produced videos in support of the theory, and is a key advocate for it. Awoma (talk) 11:49, 23 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• I agree with this sentiment, and I think that adjusting the wording as such would be far more neutral and in line with the standards of an encyclopedia. Furthermore, I think that this article would benefit from a more consolidated career section where these topics (YouTube content, great replacement, etc.) can be discussed in greater detail without distorting the neutrality of the introduction. Informationdude420 (talk) 17:10, 23 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Support both and even more so if these suggestions are taken up. BTW I haven't seen it elsewhere in these comments (but may have just missed it) but is the southern poverty law centre an RS? They described her as alt-right in a piece. Xurizuri (talk) 14:33, 22 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment Sorry to jump in randomly, but with regards to the first question, it may be worth adding a note about Lauren Southern's denial of the label, as recommended by WP:WELLKNOWN. I know it is mentioned separately deep into the article, but considering her vehement denial, it's probably worth including in the lead. (The label itself should still remain, since it's backed up by numerous sources [1] [2] [3] [4] [and many of these are recent articles]. There appears to be a self-made claim that she has changed her views, but I would argue it still falls under the "unduly self-serving" exception of WP:BLPSELFPUB / WP:ABOUTSELF.) — Parent5446 ☯ ^{(msg email)} 14:02, 23 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  If there aren't significant RS that state in their voice that she has renounced the alt-right/white supremacy, I don't think it should go in the lead per WP:MANDY and WP:ABOUTSELF. GorillaWarfare (talk) 17:49, 23 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Fair enough, I had not read that essay before. I wonder if the policy should be adjusted to be more specific about the exception, though. — Parent5446 ☯ ^{(msg email)} 09:21, 24 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Support both per this conversation, and others below, both claims are thoroughly supported. If anything, I would remove the "has been described as", as per Awoma's reasoning above. — Parent5446 ☯ ^{(msg email)} 17:03, 24 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Support both per overwhelming quantity of sources, though I agree with Awoma that "has been described as" is not necessary. If RS support that she has indeed renounced the alt-right/white supremacy, that can be added also, but it does not change that that is primarily what she is known for. GorillaWarfare (talk) 17:46, 23 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Support both. It does not matter what Southern herself says on the matter, it matters what reliable sources state. She can claim whatever she wants, but that does not make it fact. sam1370 (talk · contribs) 20:14, 23 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Support both, she may not agree with it, she may be trying to change that image now that she is in Australia and has a child but until reliable sources state that she has changed, she is known for both being Alt-Right/Far-Right and for pushing the Great Replacement theory. Even if she does change and reliable sources say that, this article will still say that she used to be. Even recent articles from The Guardian in August talks about her being Far-right and pushing the Replacement conspiracy. While these recent Sydney Morning Herald, Atlantic and Times of Israel note that she is Alt-Right.NZFC^(talk)(cont) 20:40, 23 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Her political views have not changed if I understand correctly https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F0Vx6gS2vAE#t=6m . Visite fortuitement prolongée (talk) 17:15, 1 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Support - Biographies should take a long view of why a person is encyclopedically noteworthy. Some contextualization may be appropriate, but this would still require reliable sources. Having watched and edited this page over several years, my observation is that reliable sources are understandably skeptical of Southern's dilettante punditry. Since sources do not take her claims at face value before, there is no reason to assume they would take them at face value now.

As for WP:ABOUTSELF, we've seen many white nationalists give tepid or contradictory rebuttals to how reliable sources describe them. Southern's friend Stefan Molyneux is just one example. This remains unpersuasive. One of the underlying problems is that Southern and these other figures are completely unqualified to define white nationalism/white supremacy/etc. They dispute these description not by addressing their own statements or actions, but by offering a false or incomplete definition. Per the NZ Herald source, this appears to be how sources treat Southern's return. She's not really discussing anything she has said or done, she is instead blaming the "partisan" nature of "mainstream media". She always pretended to give "both sides", so nothing has really changed. The Herald source mentions a comparison to Dave Rubin, which is apt, since Rubin has interviewed Southern (and Molyneux). Rubin also claims to be a centrist, and sources also reject that as nonsense. It's all sophistry, and it should not surprise anyone that reliable sources mostly ignore it. Grayfell (talk) 23:03, 23 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Support I made my comment already above. She self identified as "altright" on twitter. QED. Hyperballad Eye (talk) 00:16, 24 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• I support this proposal as I mention above, but I don't think her self-identification as alt-right on Twitter carries much weight, for the same exact reason that her current self-identification as no longer being alt-right also doesn't carry any weight. Rather, it's the variety of other third-party reliable sources identifying her as alt-right that support including the identification in the article. (Sorry to be pedantic, but I think it's important to state in order to avoid people arguing, "well she doesn't self-identify any longer, therefore it should be left out".) — Parent5446 ☯ ^{(msg email)} 01:44, 30 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I see where you are coming from, but I think her self identifying carries additional weight. For example if she had consistently denied it from the beginning instead it might be different. But she has done the opposite. Hyperballad Eye (talk) 03:29, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Support, as reliable sources say this.--Astral Leap (talk) 09:05, 24 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Support both without attribution; extensively sourced and there's no actual indication that these labels are controversial in this context; the sourcing also supports the idea that these aspects are crucial to her notability and therefore belong in the lead. Self-denials are not automatically given weight when they are not treated credibly; we would need decent secondary sources disagreeing with them in order to consider them contentious. EDIT: Since people have made the argument above and below, I should add that I strenuously disagree with the assertion that political descriptors fall under WP:LABEL. These are not epithets or insults, they are dispassionate political descriptors widely used in academic sources. The argument that we should couch every single political descriptor, no matter how factual or well-cited to non-opinion sources, beyond WP:WEASEL wording is an absurd and tortured misreading of WP:LABEL. Accurately saying that someone is a member of the alt-right, when the sources universally report that fact, is not comparable to calling them a terrorist. --Aquillion (talk) 19:22, 24 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Support – Crucial to the subject's notability and substantiated by numerous reliable sources. 207.161.86.162 (talk) 02:51, 29 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
•  Comment: Maybe « Lauren Cherie Southern (born 16 June 1995) is a Canadian political activist and YouTuber. She has been described as alt-right and a white nationalist. » could be replaced by « Lauren Cherie Southern (born 16 June 1995) is a Canadian far-right political activist and YouTuber. » Tough? Visite fortuitement prolongée (talk) 15:08, 1 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Perfect. Hyperballad Eye (talk) 03:19, 2 December 2020 (UTC) The second line mentioned in the rfc should also be included of course Hyperballad Eye (talk) 03:22, 2 December 2020 (UTC) I Sorry I misread that. Far right /= alt right. She is described in the sources as altright, in addition to her self identifying as such. We should describe her the way the sources describe her. Hyperballad Eye (talk) 02:23, 3 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Why the shift to "far-right" from "alt-right and white nationalist"? I could see "Lauren Cherie Southern (born 16 June 1995) is a Canadian alt-right and white nationalist political activist and YouTuber" given the sourcing, but I haven't really seen an argument in this RfC that "far-right" is preferred. GorillaWarfare (talk) 16:29, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Because

1. this is shorter
2. the average reader may not know that "alt-right and white nationalist" are flavors of far-right activist

But that is only a suggestion from me. I do not care if something else is chosen. Visite fortuitement prolongée (talk) 22:20, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

•  Comment: Just adding my thoughts here, that if you were only going to choose between the two and not have both, then we should go with the source material and most of it here in this discussion, uses Alt-Right more commonly than far-right.

alt-right: Vice, Chicago Sun Times, The Atlantic

far-right: The Guardian

both far-right and alt-right:Times of Israel, Sydney Morning Hearld. NZFC^(talk)(cont) 00:15, 3 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• I disagree with you. 1. Brevity, or lack there of, Isn't an issue here. 2. If the average reader does understand that. It's been in the news for ten years. Hyperballad Eye (talk) 02:28, 3 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

•  Comment: I believe that when there is numerous RS stating an information there is no need to precise the names of the RS conveying this information. However, I do not believe the facts she promotes (promoted?) the Great Replacement theory deserves to be in the lead unless it is the subject which caracterises her like it does for Renaud Camus. Please ping me if you want to anwser me, as I will not be putting this article on my watchlist. Veverve (talk) 14:40, 4 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Veverve: What something more notable that she could be identified with? Hyperballad Eye (talk) 00:40, 5 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Hyperballad Eye: I am not informed enough on the situation to say what would be more notable, sorry; maybe simply removing her defense of this theory from the lead is enough, as what would then remains seems broad enough. From what I understand she just defended this theory during a short lapse of time in her public life, so unless that is what defines her as a public figure or was an important part of her career, I believe it should not be put in the lead. Veverve (talk) 01:17, 5 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Veverve:That doesn't make a lot of sense to me, I don't think you are commenting in good faith. Hyperballad Eye (talk) 02:38, 5 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Hyperballad Eye: I am sorry if there is some rules or conventions concerning articles related to politics of which I am unaware of; if I misjudged the situation then I accept this fact. Veverve (talk) 20:00, 5 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Support The weight of sourcing here is crushing, a further google search demonstrates that these issues are the the major source of her notoriety, to leave it out would be tendentious in the extreme, sanitizing the issues she is most widely known for. Any attempts to exclude this information stand in such stark contrast to reliable sources as to be fairly blatant POV pushing. And no "has been described as" or any other WP:WEASEL language, as per policy. Bacondrum (talk) 01:10, 7 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• As for that last part, I would direct you to the section immediately above what you're linking here - MOS:LABEL covers what's being discussed. Preserving the "described as" language would seem necessary to maintain a neutral perspective, especially important on the biography of a living person. Chillabit (talk) 20:17, 7 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Support both There really is no reason to take the basic statements out of the lede. "Alt-right" and "white nationalist" seem to be the best wording, as that's how she's described in most sources. Difference in length (compared to "far-right") is negligible, and if the reader doesn't know what alt-right or white-nationalist mean then they can figure it out pretty quickly by reading the linked pages for the respective terms. As for WP:LABEL, I was comparing the terms "alt-right" and "white nationalist" to "racist", not "terrorist". It's not like I feel very strongly one way or other about the "has been described as" type language — I agree with the characterization the sources are pinning onto Lauren Southern. I may just not be familiar enough with Wiki standards, but it seemed relevant to me. Now as for whether she's renounced her views. In one of her posts on this page, she was arguing that her documentaries, Farmlands and Borderless, were more notable than her Great Replacement video... which, to be clear, are obviously related to the same topic matter as her Great Replacement video. So methinks not much genuine renouncement of old views has taken place, not that it wasn't already obvious. Chillabit (talk) 14:47, 10 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Also, I've just seen the way this sort of thing is handled on the Laura Loomer lede, and I think we may do well to copy that style here. Loomer is described as "far-right" in the lead section, and a cite-note follows with "Sources describing Loomer as "far-right" include:...", which I think would apply well here, just swap out "far-right" for "alt-right" and "white nationalist". We did already have NZFC on this talk page compile a similar list earlier, anyway, which can be a starting point. Seem okay? Chillabit (talk) 00:09, 13 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Absolutely, I'm gonna a go ahead and be bold with that improvement. Bacondrum (talk) 02:27, 13 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment Lauren seems to have stated she is no longer a white nationalist, however no evidence is provided to the alternative. She has previously stated she identifies as an "identitarian" stated she was part of the alt right multiple times, defended bogus racial theories, and other such nonsense. There is literally no evidence to this or citations we can use therefor we can't state she isn't alt-right we simply see actions and her actions are well completely racist, sexist etc... We can state "Lauren denies that she is alt-right" however she stated multiple times she is in the alt right. Vallee01 (talk) 07:47, 18 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Support both Southern is widely known and has been widely shown in third party sources to hold these views. We are not in the business of providing cover for conservatives upset that their "power levels" have been revealed. 24.224.212.90 (talk) 13:55, 18 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Support Lauren Southern should be allowed to state that she denies these characterisations, but the number of sources describing her as such are overwhelming and to remove them would be a disservice to NPOV. Hemiauchenia (talk) 00:25, 20 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment I've received scolding messages from CaligulaAlex complaining about my support of this RFC. I would suggest attempts to intimidate IP editors should be noted by whoever eventually closes this RFC. 24.224.212.90 (talk) 12:49, 21 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

yes, I suspect CaligulaAlex is a sock Bacondrum (talk) 07:15, 22 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

"Lauren Cherie Southern (born 16 June[4] 1995) is a Canadian alt-right, white nationalist, conspiracy theorist, political activist and YouTuber.[a][5][6]"

Last week the article on Lauren southern made the claim that Southern had been accused of being a White Nationalist and Alt-Right, the page now claims she is in fact a White Nationalist and has deleted her rejection of the label.

Under Wikipedia guidelines "If the subject has denied such allegations, their denial(s) should also be reported."

Gareth1893 made the edits to meet these guidelines today. Yet GorillaWarfare reversed Gareth1893's adjustment and removed Southern's rejection of the label White Nationalist despite it having a well trusted source (The Atlantic) and being a mandatory inclusion under the guidelines. Gareth1893 was then given a warning of ban from editing the page by BaconDrum if he attempted again.

Making the claim that Southern is indeed a white nationalist while she rejects this and very few media sources accuse her of the label is defamatory. It also violates due weight to include this yet not include the labels conservative, right wing, far-right or even alt-light, which are named in far more media sources associated with the subject.

The opening to this article violates the neutrality and intense guidelines around living-persons pages.

The rejection of the label must be included and the claim that she is in fact a white nationalist removed otherwise this page fits under "attack pages" within the guidelines, and therefore is not allowed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by CaligulaAlex (talk • contribs) 06:12, 19 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Caligula, You seem to know a lot about guidelines for a user with two edits? Regarding "If the subject has denied such allegations, their denial(s) should also be reported." you are correct. The rest is all well sourced, including the claim she is a white nationalist, backed by a wide variety of reliable sources. Bacondrum (talk) 10:52, 19 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

If I am correct why did you block Gareth1893 from making this adjustment? — Preceding unsigned comment added by CaligulaAlex (talk • contribs) 23:40, 19 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Here's the source:

• Lombroso, Daniel (16 October 2020). "Why the Alt-Right's Most Famous Woman Disappeared". The Atlantic. Retrieved 19 December 2020.

For context, the subtitle of the article is "Lauren Southern could spew racist propaganda like no other. But the men around her were better at one thing: trafficking in ugly misogyny."

This is the part where she denies being a white nationalist:

By the time Southern went on McInnes’s show, I had been following her for nearly a year. I was making a documentary for The Atlantic about the white-nationalist movement, called White Noise. I’d already become accustomed to the accommodations Southern made to stay within a movement whose hatreds are prolific. (Southern denies being a white nationalist.) And I’d already become her confidant of sorts, too—I kept feeling compelled to remind her that I was a reporter. “Hey Daniel, in your honest opinion am I a little crazy?” she texted me once. “Do you think I’m irredeemable and can’t go back to a normal life?”

Article content should reflect the weight of reliable sources. Unless I missed it, this is the only time the article mentions Southern's denial. The only time her denial is mentioned it is in relation to how "crazy" she is, and how "normal" her life could be -nothing at all about her views on race or her ideology. In context, this parenthetical denial is undermined by the surrounding context of the source itself. As just one more example among many, the next paragraph says Her misgivings mostly revolved around the harassment she received from other members of her movement.

So yes, the source could be used to mention that she denies being a white nationalist, but it should be weighed accordingly. It certainly doesn't magically transform the article into an attack page.

One good approach would be to look at what the source says in total, summarize that, and also use it to mention Southern's tepid denial. Grayfell (talk) 00:08, 20 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

(Edit conflict) CaligulaAlex Because they removed very widely reported and well cited claims (in fact, the cite Gareth1893 added supports one of the claims he attempted to remove in it's title) The weight of sourcing for those claims is crushing, thus they are not controversial and do not require attribution or any such. "Southern denies being a white nationalist" is the only legitimate adjustment supported by the added citation, I'll add it now, the cite does not back the claims she denied any other descriptor. Bacondrum (talk) 00:17, 20 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Having said that, Grayfell is right, the article and Southern contradict themselves. I added the actual claim "Southern denies being a white nationalist". But i'm still unsure it belongs there, Southern contradicts herself frequently, I'll let other editors decide if the interminable ideological goal post shifting that Southern indulges in counts as a genuine and noteworthy denial. If it is removed I wont challenge the removal. Bacondrum (talk) 00:17, 20 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I also added something from this source. The source is lengthy and complicated, and doesn't really lend itself to soundbites. For some reason I did not get an edit conflict warning, so the semi-revert was not intentional. Feel free to adjust as needed. Grayfell (talk) 00:31, 20 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

No worries at all, thanks Grayfell. Bacondrum (talk) 01:23, 20 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I have heavily reworked this article in the last 24 hours. Some of events in the activism and views sections duplicated each other, so I have merged them and tried to arrange the structure so that this is much less likely to hap[pen in the future. I split off her visits to New Zealand, Australia and the UK as these are largely self-contained. The only problem is Southern's current residency in Australia, she is now being described as a "regular contributor" to the country's version of Sky News in recent sources. Her contributions appear consistent with her past, but not necessarily with the way this article is now structured. Philip Cross (talk) 15:03, 22 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Nice work, thanks. I'm going to remove the "regular contributor" claim, it's cited with an opinion piece from the Guardians "Comment is free" opinion column, as per WP:RSEDITORIAL this is not a reliable source for such a claim. Bacondrum (talk) 22:37, 22 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]