User talk:Jimbo Wales: Difference between revisions

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Please make Read & Edit Progressive web applications (mobile lite apps) for other wikis, especially Wiktionary, Wikivoyage and Commons which are very well suited for contributing from a smartphone.

2) These wikis are losing huge number of potential edits due to the absence of an app. Many wikis are in direly need more contributors. For instance, the translations content in English Wiktionary is very less and will be much needed for the new Wikifunctions project.

3) For a majority of population, a smartphone is the only device they can afford/have. So please ensure the services reach them and that they also can contribute. The old Wiktionary mobile app had 1 million+ downloads, but app development stopped.

4) Wikimedia should have been in the forefront of having Progressive web apps. Other top websites already have it.

5) Progressive web application developed for one wiki can be easily adopted for all other wikis as well. And can be maintained by a small team.

6) It is an obligation of WMF to develop Mobile apps with full editing capabilities for the community.

So please make it. Thank you! - Vis M (talk) 00:52, 20 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Vis M, smartphones suck. Nice to have to consume media, not so much to create it. (except for photos/videos) For a majority of population, a smartphone is the only device they can afford/have. In Africa and rural China maybe. How much translations content are you expecting from those areas? You can buy a used Core 2 Duo laptop for $100. (less if you shop around) And that's including COVID-19 price hike (such machines used to be closer to $50) The price will be a bit higher in developing markets, but still. If you can't afford that you have bigger problems, like paying for food and rent. To provide access, there has been Wikipedia Zero in developing markets. Great source of copyvios that was. (I'm sure there was legitimate use as well) See also User talk:Jimbo Wales/Archive 245#The tragic case of User:CejeroC and WP:THEYCANTHEARYOU. These apps for the most part just need to die. — Alexis Jazz (talk or ping me) 01:55, 20 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

That should be blamed on WMF's irresponsibility to fix issues. A lite/progressive web app actually prevents such issues as the exact web app is just put inside a wrapper to act as a mobile lite app.

I beg to differ on the "apps should die" part, they should be well maintained but more simplistically and with full functionalities including editing, navboxes, categories, etc. I really like responsive MonoBook/Vector-new skins for mobile and I wish that they will just put it in a wrapper to make a lite app - Vis M (talk) 05:18, 20 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Vis M, just make a shortcut to https://en.m.wikipedia.org on your homescreen? — Alexis Jazz (talk or ping me) 06:07, 20 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, actually lite apps does the same. Shortcut url to homescreen will make it into an app. Twitter's story. I was requesting lite apps to make wikis accessible for more people and potential editors. - Vis M (talk) 22:36, 20 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

If I'm reading this right as an explicit dismissal of potential editors from Africa and China, I'm shocked. I don't know what makes you an authority on access to technology in the developing world, but from my own anecdotal experience I know many communities in India have (pragmatically) access to smartphones only (I don't really care what you can buy for what price on Amazon in your country), and that living in poverty is not really anything to do with whether you are reading Wikipedia (in which case, you can be editing as you read) or whether you have some amount of free time. Of course, many people in India and Africa do speak English, but there are other language editions of Wikipedia too. China is a special case because of its firewall. — Bilorv (talk) 12:48, 21 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Bilorv, actually it's a dismissal of smartphone editors, particularly for major text contributions. Some exceptions exist, but generally smartphone editors have a hard time producing major text contributions. And the few that do just use the mobile site. Apps for editing are not the solution here. (I have no objection to apps for reading wikis) If you can't afford food or rent you should not be wasting time editing Wikipedia while starving under a bridge. If you can afford food, rent, a smartphone and internet you shouldn't have that much trouble getting a Bluetooth keyboard and using the mobile site. It doesn't matter how much you spend on app development: until smartphones get keyboards (they used to, but really tiny ones) you can't edit too comfortably on them. It's a hardware problem. — Alexis Jazz (talk or ping me) 15:31, 21 May 2021 (UTC);[reply]

I don't know why you think it's acceptable to say sentences like, Even in Africa and China: if you can't afford food or rent you should not be wasting time editing Wikipedia while starving under a bridge. Astonishing. — Bilorv (talk) 15:46, 21 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Bilorv Oh, that's not right. I re-wrote my reply at some point before publishing it, the first part of that sentence you quoted is some strange Frankenstein leftover of the initial version that ended up in a different context, which made it rather unacceptable. I've adjusted it. — Alexis Jazz (talk or ping me) 15:52, 21 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Bth sides are, well, I think the most accurate word would be "over-extreming" this. In most poor countries, people are not SO poor that they are living under bridges; rather, they can afford rent, basic necessities and perhaps a luxury or 2. And most of all, nearly everyone in poor countries have smartphones. Poor countries do not mean everyone there is poor; rather, people are poor in relation to the world. In their respective countries they might be middle-class. Either way, people are not so desperate as to not be able to afford basic necessities and things like that, but they certainly don't have enough in the bank to afford fancy laptops (not to mention the electricity cost, my parents still bother me about it even in America). A mobile app would be a great help to people with smartphones wanting to maybe make a few edits to Wikipedia, help out with things they know about (perhaps things in their own nation!!!). It is generally known that apps are better suited for mobile use than mobile sites, and an app is a great idea, requiring minimal work and upkeep while extending access to millions, or even billions.RealKnockout (talk) 16:51, 21 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

RealKnockout, an idling laptop with the screen turned on (no monster gaming laptop, low/medium screen brightness) consumes <10W. Running for 16 hours/day would cost roughly $1/month in Europe. In the US I think about half that because less tax. I assume (given the US flag on your user page) that you use America as a synonym for the US. Your parents are not concerned about $0.02/day, they just want you to get away from the computer. In a few places it could be considerably higher, but electricity should generally not be the problem. an app is a great idea, requiring minimal work and upkeep Are you a developer? An app is a ton of work and an massive burden to developers. They already have to make sure that changes in the software work well on the desktop site, the mobile site, in various browsers, on various devices with various input methods and screen sizes and resolutions. (and they already can't fully test/manage this!) Having to develop and support apps for Android, iOS, Windows 10 Mobile (on a tight budget you don't get the latest model smartphone), KaiOS and possibly others is just a pain. Improve the mobile site? Fine. Platform-specific apps? Don't waste developer time. — Alexis Jazz (talk or ping me) 18:32, 21 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

A simple lite app for major platform can be adopted by many other sister wikis as well. Can serve millions of people by spending mere few hours of developer's time- Vis M (talk) 05:48, 26 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Please don't. I'd rather energy be put towards making the regular mobile editing experience great. So few of our editors or readers use the app. Apps just aren't as popular or necessary these days, when you can make a stunning mobile site. The phrase "there's an app for that" reflects the fact that there are too many apps, not too few. CaptainEek ^{Edits Ho Cap'n!}⚓ 17:22, 21 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  The single-task-oriented user interface of mobile phones doesn't allow serious use of tabs/windows and IME this makes adding rule-abiding citations a much worse chore than on desktops/laptops. Perhaps this is the root cause behind Alexis Jazz's complaint. What I don't see is how a PWA could fix this problem. It's really just a HTML/JS webpage, and possibly one that breaks compatibility with older and/or non-ubiquitous browsers. Daß Wölf 23:12, 21 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  Daß Wölf, you're pretty much hitting the nail on the head there. I frequently see mobile users adding unsourced facts which may or may not be true, and desktop users are left to go on what often amounts to a wild-goose chase for the source. The single-task-oriented user interface is also at least part of the reason for WP:THEYCANTHEARYOU. — Alexis Jazz (talk or ping me) 01:58, 22 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  this part of the problem has always had an easy workaround. We should encourage people with inadequate interfaces or connectivity to just put free-form references as best they have them in the articles as they go, and not even think about the details of getting them formatted correctly. We have no shortage of people who know citation formatting. It bothers me every time I see a draft rejected because of improper formatting when the information needed is actually present in some manner. DGG ( talk ) 06:11, 25 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  DGG, fully agree. Fixing citation formatting is no problem. But the only person to know the source for some added fact is the person who adds it. If a URL is provided in the edit summary or inline that's okay, it's fixable. If it's missing, there is nothing to fix. I also think that if a draft is about a notable subject, is comprehensible (fairly low standard) and adequately sourced (even if that's done inline), it's better to stick some problem tags on it, move it to article space and let the WikiGnomes do their magic. This as opposed to rejecting it and tagging it for G13 6 months later. — Alexis Jazz (talk or ping me) 06:45, 25 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  CaptainEek My request with this "lite app" post is that the mobile website should be developed so well according to the best modern standards that it should be possible to just put the mobile web app in a wrapper to make lite app. I am not requesting a native mobile app. Mobile apps would actually offer better quality edits than desktop to certain wikis like Commons, Wikt & Wikivoyage - Vis M (talk) 07:59, 22 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• I will state my contrarian opinion based on many years of experience. There are 7.8 billion people on Earth. In the past five years, 7 billion Android smartphones have been sold. Almost every prospective editor on the planet has access to a smartphone. The so-called "desktop" site works perfectly on modern Android phones and is fully functional. I have done 99% of my edits on Android phones for almost ten years. I have written many dozen new articles, expanded hundreds of articles, taken articles to GA, became an administrator with over 300 support votes, blocked thousands of bad actors, answered thousands of questions at the Teahouse and help desk, all on Android phones. They function exactly like miniature handheld "desktop" computers on the "desktop" site. The only time I use an actual desktop computer is to work on large image files. When a smartphone user edits using the desktop site, the WMF has no way to track and analyze those edits. It is as if editors like me do not exist and are therefore entirely disregarded and ignored. And vast amounts of money and programmer time are poured into apps and the mobile site, none of which have never worked as well as the desktop site for editing, and still don't in 2021. It is an ongoing tragedy and I see no prospect for change. Smartphone editors continue to be sent by default to an inferior way of editing, and the vast majority have no way of learning what I know by experience. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 01:03, 29 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I learned in the board meeting last night that the WMF is taking a good hard look at the mobile strategy, and the discussion on this page was specifically referenced as an inspiration for that. So the good news is that I think your pessimism is too strong here. I asked for support (for me) in terms of someone letting me know where to best channel discussions like this, because I'm pretty sure that "chatter on Jimmy's talk page" isn't really the most efficient line of communication even if in this case it appears to have made a difference!

Another point is that it isn't strictly speaking true from a technical perspective that "When a smartphone user edits using the desktop site, the WMF has no way to track and analyze those edits". Generally speaking, when you're using the site, your browser identifies itself with a "user agent" string. You can see yours at a number of sites like this one - it just reads it and prints it back to you.

Having said that, I suspect that it is true - and hence the need for a new hard look at this question - that very very few people have discovered that the desktop site works perfectly well on Android mobile phones, better than the app. So the number of editors like you is vanishingly small, and that will of course impede analysis.

Finally, I don't think it is correct to say that "vast amounts of money and programmer time are poured into apps and the mobile site". I think the issue is the opposite: not enough money and programmer time have been poured into it, given that mobile in various forms accounts for at least half of our traffic (I don't know the exact number personally).--Jimbo Wales (talk) 08:25, 2 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

It is excellent news that the WMF is looking at mobile editing again. I'm not as awesome as Cullen, so I can't write proper articles or on my phone, but just for discussion edits, the responsive monobook skin on the non-mobile site works perfectly on my phone, better than the mobile site. —Kusma (talk) 15:46, 2 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you very much! :) - Vis M (talk) 18:32, 4 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Absolutely right about the desktop version Jim. I always go right to the desktop version of the Wikimedia pages if it has started on a mobile version (silk browser, etc.), because for the functionality and design it does work better than probably any larger scale site I can think of in this context. Thanks for all the hard work through the years.

--JLavigne508 (talk) 17:46, 6 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Wondering how others see the text, I use Monobook and view text at 175% and at 100% the text seems so small as to be almost unreadable. Maybe that's just my sense after my brain has adjusted to the larger text, but would suggest at least a little more text size for the default. What size do you view Wikipedia? Thanks. Randy Kryn (talk) 21:16, 2 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Jimbo, please consider the following:

1. There is an official Wikimedia store (although it's currently on hiatus).
2. The Wikipedia logo is a 3D puzzle globe.
3. If you Google 3D puzzle globes, you will find various companies that make them, such as Ravensburger and 4DPuzzle.

When you put these facts together, I think it becomes clear what needs to happen! So, when will we be able to buy a real life, interactive version of the Wikipedia jigsaw globe on the Wikimedia store?

Thanks, WanderingWanda🐮👑 (talk) 00:36, 3 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I for one would love to have a little puzzle globe on my desk. Also, would love for the Wikipedia store to reopen so I can pester my family to buy me stuff from there for the holidays :P CaptainEek ^{Edits Ho Cap'n!}⚓ 00:56, 3 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Ask and you shall receive. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 06:32, 3 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

But it's an incomplete puzzle globe! How do you think that makes puzzle addicts feel?!? ---Sluzzelin talk 00:58, 3 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I think this would be a golden oppertunity to complete the globe, as it were. A while back the the glyphs for the "hidden" pieces were defined, and now at last the glyphs for the "missing" pieces could be revealed as well!

Incidentally, apparently the idea of making physical Wiki puzzle globes has been done before, at Wikimania 2007. WanderingWanda🐮👑 (talk) 04:25, 3 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• This would be so cool! I'd definitely get this over a t-shirt. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 06:34, 3 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I have one. Following the Wikimania in 2007, I found out the source and bought one for the 10th anniversary of Wikipedia party that I held in London. Here's a picture. It was stored for several years at Wikimedia UK, but when they moved to a smaller office at some point, they asked me to take it back. It's here at my home (disassembled in a box!) - I had hoped to get it out for a new London party for the 20th, but covid made that not possible. Maybe I'll get it out for the 25th. :)--Jimbo Wales (talk) 10:34, 6 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thank me later. Pink Saffron (talk) 11:17, 4 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Pink Saffron,  ? — Alexis Jazz (talk or ping me) 21:16, 6 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Harej, Deskana, Anomie and Adamw have been bullied by their employer, the WMF. Former bureaucrat WJBscribe had already asked if Jimbo could offer assurances that this will be properly investigated before Deskana, Anomie and Adamw joined Harej in stepping forward. Jimbo, I understand you're a busy man - but a response could be really reassuring here. — Alexis Jazz (talk or ping me) 21:32, 6 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

In my case, a now-former WMF "Vice President" set up a meeting with me (a rank and file developer) and refused my polite request to share the topic or agenda for the meeting. When I came to this meeting, the now-former WMF Vice President of Human Relations was also in attendance, though unannounced. I was informed that an internal staff email I had written, pushing back against what I saw as excesses of management, was cause for putting a formal complaint on my personnel file. I had used the phrase "red herring" and was told my "tone" was too forceful. The HR manager also told me that a handful of messages we had exchanged, a (in my opinion) friendly discussion about the potential for reform and possible ways to accomplish it, where this manager encouraged my exploration, were in fact undesired and they implied this would be recorded in the complaint as well.

Coincidentally, at the time I was also trying to organize a union with many other employees, and as the main breadwinner for two small children I felt it necessary to shield myself from further retribution by pointing to the Sarbanes-Oxley Act and other protections for whistleblowers and labor organizers. Perhaps also a coincidence, my full-time pay was soon reduced by at least 65% for several months while I lived in Peru, although I made it clear that I would be returning to the San Francisco Bay and would need every penny of my projected savings to re-enter the housing market there. I do feel that "bullying" is the right word for what I experienced. I've kept detailed notes and hardcopies of the context and exchanges, which I'm happy to provide.

However, Jimmy Wales was a key member of the group I was pushing against: the Wikimedia Foundation Board. He still sits on the Board and as far as I can tell there has been no significant reform of the antidemocratic structure which legitimizes this Board. I resent the patriarchal premise of this talk page, that contributors are left to beg the most famous of Wikipedia's founders to investigate already well-known issues, in his volunteer capacity, rather than having a proper democratic means of oversight. I don't see what good can be accomplished by having a conversation here, and I will not be reassured short of a really extraordinary statement. —Adamw (talk) 08:35, 7 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]