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The Last Closet: The Dark Side of Avalon Paperback – April 18, 2018
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Marion Zimmer Bradley was a bestselling science fiction author, a feminist icon, and was awarded the World Fantasy Award for lifetime achievement. She was best known for the Arthurian fiction novel THE MISTS OF AVALON and for her very popular Darkover series.
She was also a monster.
THE LAST CLOSET: The Dark Side of Avalon is a brutal tale of a harrowing childhood. It is the true story of predatory adults preying on the innocence of children without shame, guilt, or remorse. It is an eyewitness account of how high-minded utopian intellectuals, unchecked by law, tradition, religion, or morality, can create a literal Hell on Earth.
THE LAST CLOSET is also an inspiring story of survival. It is a powerful testimony to courage, to hope, and to faith. It is the story of Moira Greyland, the only daughter of Marion Zimmer Bradley and convicted child molester Walter Breen, told in her own words.
- Print length550 pages
- LanguageEnglish
- PublisherCastalia House
- Publication dateApril 18, 2018
- Dimensions6.14 x 1.23 x 9.21 inches
- ISBN-109527065208
- ISBN-13978-9527065204
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Product details
- Publisher : Castalia House (April 18, 2018)
- Language : English
- Paperback : 550 pages
- ISBN-10 : 9527065208
- ISBN-13 : 978-9527065204
- Item Weight : 1.84 pounds
- Dimensions : 6.14 x 1.23 x 9.21 inches
- Best Sellers Rank: #395,544 in Books (See Top 100 in Books)
- #313 in Child Abuse (Books)
- #596 in Abuse Self-Help
- #11,775 in Memoirs (Books)
- Customer Reviews:
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Customers find the themes inspiring, heartbreaking, and fascinating. They also describe the visual appearance as amazing and a look under the covers. Opinions are mixed on the content, with some finding it truly important and powerful, while others find it horrifying and not an easy read. Readers also disagree on readability, with others finding it intensely readable and simple, while still others say it's not an enjoyable read.
AI-generated from the text of customer reviews
Customers find the themes in the book inspiring, harrowing, and heartbreaking. They also describe the book as a true and accurate cautionary tale against the horrors it describes. Readers also say the author is very brave and the book is not a heartless attack on her parents.
"...But it is, in most ways, a book with a positive message...." Read more
"...It’s inspiring to read about her strength and industriousness in overcoming her horrific childhood and making something of herself despite what she..." Read more
"...But it is also hopeful, and Greyland has shown that even out of the darkest of depraved experiences, light can shine, and that Christ can heal...." Read more
"...It's raw. It's stomach-turning. It's heart-breaking. Moira can't bring herself to share it all, but what she shares is devastating enough...." Read more
Customers find the visual appearance of the book amazing. They say it's an amazing look under the covers at the decadence that can fester and linger.
"...It is detailed and meticulous and honest, without being overly graphic...." Read more
"...It is a powerful, important, and well-crafted look at the horror of pedophilia from the inside out...." Read more
"...cohesive book that is such a great resource, but that it is also a beautiful one that avoids so many of the common problems with tell-alls of this..." Read more
"...She also paints a vivid, detailed picture of the physical and emotional abuse heaped upon all of her parents' victims, not to tittilate, but to..." Read more
Customers find the humor in the book lighthearted and a pick-me-up.
"...tighter editing to avoid unncessary repetition, but it is also frequently witty and generally compelling...." Read more
"...demonstrates a stunning amount of grace, honesty, perseverance, and even humor...." Read more
"...a particularly heavy section is struck, there is always a lighthearted pick-me-up for the reader so that there is time to breathe...." Read more
"...5. The book has a quite a bit of humor in it, which mainly comes from Moira describing something her parents did or believed that comes across as so..." Read more
Customers are mixed about the content. Some find the book truly important, powerful, and towering. They say it's thoughtful, even-handed, and presents a detailed case very convincingly. However, others say it is horrifying, uncomfortable, and makes their skin crawl.
"...healthy in both body and mind, all things considered, and is professionally successful as well as (apparently) happily married with children...." Read more
"...Here are my takes:(1) Moira is brutally honest, even about herself...." Read more
"...Once again, I need to caution you about very, very disturbing content in this book...." Read more
"...It's probably the best "survivor" book out there. It is detailed and meticulous and honest, without being overly graphic...." Read more
Customers are mixed about the readability. Some find the writing intensely readable and moving, bringing forth her vulnerable humanity. They also describe the book as simple, strong, and hard to read. However, others say it's not an easy read, pretentious, and wordy. They mention the editing is poor and the subject is not nice.
"...The Last Closet is not a work of art...." Read more
"...And it is very well-written, and Greyland is certainly a talented author.As others have pointed out, it is a difficult and painful read...." Read more
"...This book is extremely hard to read. I have a pretty strong stomach and I can only handle it in short bursts...." Read more
"...Moira's remarkable book was written clearly and carefully, and in addition to describing her experience, she makes a compelling argument for one..." Read more
Customers find minor editing errors and oversights in the book. They also mention that basic punctuation errors are all over the place.
"...Basic punctuation errors are all over the place.By the 50th time she mentions her parents weight or how very smart she is, you get it...." Read more
"...(I left the fifth star off for minor editing errors and oversights as well as for other reasons related to formatting and style...." Read more
"...A couple of editing errors in the ebook, had to read a couple sentences over again...." Read more
"...I think all SCAers should read this book. I did have some problems with the editing where the author frequently mentions a minor friend from her JR..." Read more
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To me, the most amazing thing about it is that the author survived to write it. Moreover she seems to be surprisingly healthy in both body and mind, all things considered, and is professionally successful as well as (apparently) happily married with children. The next most amazing thing about the book is that the author is able to make us empathize with the primary abusers in the book – that is her parents, Marion Zimmer Bradley and Walter Breen. It is very clear that both were themselves abused and mistreated by their families and the book makes a decent case that their abuse of their children and many others can be explained in part by that prior experience. You even feel a certain amount of sympathy for them as they discover that the world does not behave in the way they would like. Mind you it is also clear that explaining the cause of something is not at all the same as excusing it or accepting it, and the author herself is an example to show that not everyone who is abused has to pass that abuse onto others in turn.
For people who generically {liberal→socialist pinko}/libertarian in outlook – the sorts, such as myself, who think people should be free to do as they please sexually with their partner(s) of choice so long as said partners are willing – this book should be a wake up call. Tolerance can only go so far, and consent can be a slippery concept. Is it “consent” when the alternative is freezing to death under a bridge? Indeed even if one consents is it in fact healthy to perform the desired act, or would it actually be better to find out why they want it and seek treat it?
I do not agree 100% with the book’s message about the general badness of homosexuality or polyamorous relationships but I do think the book serves a very useful purpose in graphically illustrating the ways such activities and tolerance for them in others can go horrifically wrong. The book covers the end result of a bunch of such slippery slopes. Many people who knew the author’s parents deliberately closed their minds to the rumours of abuse. Even, in some cases, denying what was in front of them. Others were so lacking in empathy and convinced of their own rectitude that they thought it was good. A lot of people who wouldn’t wish harm to a fly, who were anti-war pacifists and the like, let themselves be convinced that children (and I’m not talking teenagers here, but prepubescent children) could not just consent to sex with adults but actually enjoy it. Of course these people didn’t witness the acts themselves and thus didn’t grasp the fundamentally painful physical nature of what happens. Moira puts it very simply:
At no point is sodomy ever going to feel “good” to a child. For some of us it is something we can be forced to tolerate. But it exists for the “good” of the adult, never for the child. Somehow the notion of “Greek Love” seems a little less romantic when it is put in its proper context of a screaming, crying boy with a bleeding backside.
This explains why just the sight of a bottle of lube can trigger someone was was abused. Moira goes on to describe a number of her father’s victims who “consented” because having him bugger them for money and food was better than being whipped with an electrical cord at home where there was no food and no money. The fact that Moira considered her rampant paedophile father to be “nicer” than her mother shows just how screwed up the family was, even if it was logical – he rarely raped her, never gave her to others to rape, never beat her and he would actually talk to her instead of criticize her all the time.
The problem hinted at here is the difference between literature (where literature includes pulpy SF and trashy romance) and reality. In fiction we want to escape the humdrum of everyday life to experience something more. This means we want stories about people who are more than plain human – that are better (or worse) than the ones we meet everyday. It is quite possible to believe that a teenager or possibly a mentally mature near teen might legitimately have love of the erotic sort for an older person. It is quite possible to imagine that three or four adults should be able to live together in harmony with sex being spread equally around the group. Thus we can accept and enjoy stories where the heroes and heroines do the non standard sex thing and still end up living “Happily Ever After”.
Sadly the evidence is that in real life, the chances of an unconventional relationship being successful is extremely low and the fallout when the fail is far far worse than with a more standard one. In other words just like socialism, a lot of the free love ideas of the 1960s and 1970s are not just wrong but dangerously wrong and likely to seriously damage people. Sadly, also like socialism, the people damages aren’t always the true believers but rather the not so willing followers and, particularly, the children. Worse, the willingness to believe in the free love sorts of things leads one to look on credulously at various abusive relationships and behaviours such as paedophile grooming and not see the harm that is going on. Moreover the chances of such things being genuine rather than abusive seem to be very low, while the chances that such things will lead to, at best, mental abuse and suffering, are rather high. It is critical that people who join societies of “outcasts”, from paganism to the SCA and SF-fandom to something as banal as the Hash House Harriers or MENSA, be aware that their fellow outcasts may be outcasts for good reason. Many of course are not, but as this book makes abundantly clear, one scumbag can ruin it for dozens of victims, so toleration of the foibles of fellow outcasts must not include turning a blind eye to their abuse of others.
The book is, in many ways, a story of victims. But it is, in most ways, a book with a positive message. For people who were abused, one important thing to get out of this book is that you are not alone. Indeed, as we are learning also from the various #metoo tales recently, rape and sexual abuse seems to be a lot more widespread than we thought. However I think even more importantly the other messages to victims are that
- you are not defined as a victim
- you can call the police or other authorities, you are not worthless
- you do not have a scarlet V on your forehead
- you can overcome the trauma and get revenge on your abusers by living well.
You don’t have to forgive your abusers, you certainly shouldn’t try to forget them, but you should also try to stop letting them live rent-free in your head.
For those (like me) who weren’t abused beyond perhaps a bit of bullying, I think they key takeaway from this book is to get a feeling for what it is like for those were were. Now we can understand the odd twitches and phobias of our acquaintances who were (whether they tell us or not). We can also get to see the warning signs if we (or others we know) are slipping down to path to becoming abusers and we can see how critical it is to stop the abuser as soon as possible and not to beg the victims to keep it quiet for the good of the group.
Perhaps surprisingly, perhaps not, to me the larger message of this book is that its OK to be conventional. In general, if you stick to the conventional you may be boring, but you won’t be causing suffering in others. As for those who do want to pursue something non-conventional? I find it a bit ironic, but I’m reminded of something Moira’s mother wrote in her “Lythande” stories about how (I’m paraphrasing, in part because I don’t have the book to hand) the non-standard be required to do all the work of those who are more conventional AND the work to do retain their non-standard lifestyle. A lot of pain would probably have been avoided if MZB had been able to put into practice what she preached.
These POWs resisted the threats, beatings, and other tortures of their captors, and–in some cases–even turned the tables on their captors. (Denton’s and Stockdale’s exploits are the stuff of legend.) They strengthened the morale of other POWs and, as such, represented a special threat to their captors. For this reason, they were isolated from everyone else.
They were the Alcatraz Gang.
They didn’t take their abuses lying down; they fought back to the extent that they were able. They would become the standard-bearers for POW conduct: Stockdale would receive the Medal of Honor; Denton and Coker would receive the Navy Cross. Denton and Johnson would even go on to political careers. Denton’s book–When Hell Was In Session–is a classic.
But what does this have to do with Moira Greyland, who–a year older than myself–never saw action in Vietnam?
Moira was every bit the badass as every member of that Alcatraz Gang.
For most of her life, Hell was in session. Her story–The Last Closet–is now in print.
Fair warning: if you have endured and form of ongoing abuse–particularly physical and/or sexual–this book can be triggering, although Greyland does a splendid job of providing warnings about very difficult paragraphs.
The daughter of science fiction legend Marion Zimmer Bradley (MZB) and famed numismatic expert Walter Breen (WB), Moira–on the very top of the surface–had a good life. Like her parents, she is very intelligent: a member of Mensa. She has many talents from sewing to singing to fencing and especially the harp.
OTOH, to call her home life horrific would be charitable.
While MZB and WB were very intelligent and accomplished, they were incredibly perverted: WB and MZB were extremely libertine about sex. To them, inhibitions were the result of religious persecution. MZB called marriage “an outdated screwing license.” To WB, homosexuality was the natural state, and heterosexuality was a product of religion. To them, “anything goes” meant “have sex with whomever and however”, including with children.
In WB’s case, especially with young boys.
MZB was abusive both sexually and physically, in many cases using the physical abuse to force her children to provide her with sexual gratification.
To Moira’s credit, she provides about as charitable a presentation of her parents as anyone could. They each were themselves abused sexually and physically; WB was raised by a very abusive Catholic mother, and was bipolar and a paranoid schizophrenic; MZB was herself raped by her father; WB was molested by a Catholic priest. They each had horrid upbringings that undoubtedly put them behind the 8-ball.
At the same time, Moira, also to her credit, does not excuse their abuses, and in fact lets their record speak for itself: when they were victimized by their parents, that was their parents’ sins. But when WB and MZB chose to abuse their own children–and, sadly, other children–they transcended even the depravity of their parents.
They did this in no small part because each, after enduring their abuses, rejected God. In effect, they said, “God didn’t save us from our parents, so we want no part of that deal.”
Their resultant lives–aside from their professional successes–were a complete descent into the worst of sexual depravity, leaving a trail of damaged lives. Some of their victims, broken from the abuses, would die young from suicide or other forms of self-abuse. Others would fight off various addictions and hangups for years.
Moira struggles with complex PTSD to this day, and probably will for decades to come.
(I am aware of complex PTSD because a family member on my wife's side, also a sexual abuse survivor at the hands of her father, described that form of PTSD to me recently, as she has undergone much therapy and has even started her own initiatives to educate people in her profession about PTSD issues. And some of her reactions to certain things are similar to what I know from a friend of mine from my SBTS days who–also abused in such a fashion–experiences the same reactions.)
Here are my takes:
(1) Moira is brutally honest, even about herself. I’ve always contended that, if you’re going to recover from abuses–no matter how terrible they are–you must be willing to face the truth. She shows a lot more courage in her honesty than she credits herself. That also is probably why, in spite of suffering more than even her parents did, she is a Christian today whereas her parents rejected God altogether.
She was not perfect in her life; the abuses she endured left her with thin, marginally-existent boundaries. That led her to a level of experimentation in her teen and adult life that could have led to disaster. It also weakened her ability to see which men had her best interests in mind when they pursued her.
Thankfully, she escaped from that with a comparatively moderate level of self-inflicted baggage. I’ve seen people suffer far less than she did and make far worse decisions, and never learn from them.
(2) Moira shows, in stark, stomach-turning detail, the telos of the Sexual Revolution.
Her father, WB, was one of the early movers and shakers in NAMBLA, which promotes “man-boy love”; i.e. pederasty. They were the ones who coined the slogan “sex before eight or it’s too late”. Their view: pederasty is the purest form of love, and will prepare boys for adulthood.
Her mother was herself very “uninhibited”: she was a lesbian, but had many liaisons with men, multiple partners, etc. MZB and WB were polyamorous.
There were no sexual boundaries in her home. Nudity was expected; any expression of affinity for heterosexuality was met with hard criticism and derision; orgies were common; and MZB molested both Moira and Patrick frequently.
Every time Moira brought a boyfriend home, her father would pursue him for sex.
Her parents, obsessed with sex, dehumanized their children. Emotional support was all but nonexistent, with MZB always living on the edge of rage and WB lacking the stones to stand up to her. MZB, rather than being supportive of her daughter and complimenting her on her singing skills, was always hitting her with hard criticism. Moira could never be right about anything. WB, in contrast, was passive and often distant, chiding Moira for being a prude.
Early on, when Moira tried to report WB to police, her complaints fell on deaf ears. It was not until the late 1980s when, with the help of a counselor, she was able to successfully intervene on behalf of a child that WB was molesting.
Moira does a wonderful job articulating the whole problem with the paradigm of “consent”, even among adults, and why, even in libertine arrangements, it isn’t as cut-and-dried as the word connotes.
(3) Moira does a great job articulating the problem with gay “marriage”, and masterfully destroys the notion that sexual orientation is unchangeable. While Moira does not condemn gay people, she does confront the profound level of toxicity and dysfunction that is inherent in that lifestyle. That has rankled many in the sci-fi community who otherwise supported her, but that is her strength: Moira is, if nothing else, a truth teller.
My only criticism of her book: I wish she had shared more detail with respect to the spiritual side of her journey. She does point out that she became a Christian in her teen years, and she does a good job quoting Scripture in context in describing various situations. But other than that, not a whole lot about that side of her life.
In fairness to her, though, it could be that it’s still too early in her recovery–and the wounds are still raw–for her to do an adequate assessment of that.
—–
In this review, I do not refer to Moira by initials or even by last name; I call her by her first name. There is a purpose for that.
One of the things Moira struggles with is the depersonalization that she suffered at the hands of her abusers. She was effectively a nobody. She wasn’t allowed to have a personality; she wasn’t even allowed to have a sexual identity: her father wanted her to look neither masculine nor feminine; her mother eschewed all semblance of femininity.
I will end this with a note to Moira:
Moira, you have a name. And, given that you are in Christ, you have a gift that no one can take from you.
That is important, as your parents failed you on just about every relevant front, not just sexually. While, through their successes, they were material providers, they failed to provide a stable, loving home life that even mediocre parents provide their children. Even worse, they subjected you to the most dehumanizing of abuses, stealing from you what was never theirs to receive let alone take.
Thankfully, in Christ, you have a reward that will never perish, nor shall any man (or woman) take it from you.
Some may ask why God didn’t stop the abuses. Almost every survivor of profound hardship will wrestle with that question. There are various theological answers based on particular schools of thought, most of which don’t rise to the level of useless.
My take: your experiences, Mark’s experiences, and every experience of every one of their victims, will be a witness against them on the day of judgment. There will be a day when they will receive the payback for their atrocities. And as the saying goes about payback, it is, in fact, a Biblical truth.
On the upside: your perseverance will also be a witness on the day of judgment. Jesus Himself said, “My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. And I give to them eternal life. Neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.”
Your parents, having suffered a great deal in their childhoods, rejected God on account of what was taken from them. Their thinking was, in spite of their God-given intelligence, short-sighted and temporal. The results were tragic.
Your parents took a lot of things from you, including most of what was your earthly identity. You are recovering that, even if–at times–the progress comes in inches rather than miles, and takes years where you are used to accomplishing things in hours and minutes.
Having said that, the identity that matters most–the fact that Jesus has your name written on his hands–no one can take that away.
You were raised by two of Satan’s most devoted worker bees. Their abuses went far beyond sexual, although those alone were worse than horrid enough in their own right. They did everything they could to indoctrinate you in a secular paradigm that would gross out most hedonists. They tortured you like the Communists tortured American POWs in Vietnam.
But, by the grace of God, you fought back against your captors in a way that would have made James Bond Stockdale and Jeremiah Denton proud.
I know you don’t always feel like you acted with courage. But you did. In spades.
Hell was in session, and the gates of Hell lost.
You have fought valiantly, and have prevailed. There are still battles to fight, and there will always be times when those demons rear their ugly heads. But you will prevail, not because of great works you have done, but because you received Him who does great works.
Keep fighting the good fight!
Top reviews from other countries
So, what is this book about? At the dawn of the Sexual Revolution two intellectually gifted but enormously damaged people, feminist sci-fi writer Marion Zimmer Bradley and coin expert wild genius Walter Breen, find each other and elope together, because they share everything they deem important: their hatred of traditional morality and the 'square' people caught in it, their love for fantasy worlds and alternative histories, unconventional sexuality (both sexually abused at a young age, they both identified as gay/lesbian despite occasional affairs with the other sex) and the belief that a new, enlightened sexual morality would liberate children, and thus future generations, from the oppressive staid yoke of husband-wife heterosexuality, fashioning a better, more enlightened society in the process in which peace and love would reign. The Bradley/Breen combo would naturally produce intellectually gifted children (both parents were Mensa members) that, according to Breen's "Grand Vision", would lead the world into this utopian dream: thus, Moira and her brother Patrick are born. Moira's education involves sexual abuse from both parents (under their belief that it would 'awaken' her natural homosexuality, which is superior to mere heterosexuality), physical and emotional neglect, and a weird 'unisex' upbringing, as both her parents hate overt femininity or masculinity.
Bradley acted as the main money provider (the family's income was mainly granted by her popular fantasy series); she was usually brimming with rage and contempt, totally neglectful of housekeeping and was a horrible cook who relied on oversalted boxed meals. Breen, as smart as he was, was totally unable to dress himself or bathe (he kept a long beard for guaranteed ickiness), and would not argue directly with his stern wife, sneaking away from any adult responsibility. This awkward, fey Merlin lookalike would be the most (relatively) lovable and relatable character in the sea of sex-crazed pagan cultists, perverted polyamorists and derivative fantasy authors that congregated around their house, if not for the fact that he was also a boy-lover. That is, a pedophile/pederast who targeted young boys (from 3 to around 15), groomed them with his intelligence and neat tricks, slowly gaining their trust, and then upping the ante with sexual behaviors until all the boys could do was bite the pillow and cry. Bradley not only knew, but tolerated this from her husband, and even helped him write his pederastic opus "Greek love"; Breen saw himself as the modern version of the "glorious" Athenian pederasts, and mantained (and global history is on his side) that the most primitive and natural form of homosexuality is pederasty, and that it is an act of love and education. His victims' suicides spill out the truth for the more intellectually curious.
The book also largely deals with the birth of geek/nerd culture, the various "Age of Aquarius" pagan cults that sprung up around it, and its inability to deal with predators, if not to manufacture them outright. The fact that Breen was a dangerous pedophile, who would never admit to his own wrongs, was already known in the 60's, but it took roughly more 30 years and Moira's denounce to submit Breen to justice. Moira, who grew up in a world as twisted as it could be, who was bred to be an extension of her parents' god fantasies, in the end chose not to fulfill their "Grand Vision". She chose instead to stand firmly outside of it, and after years of silence told her story on Katy Faust's blog. The main reason why she is not hailed by the mainstream press (especially in this age of MeToo) is that she believes homosexuality is not inborn, but is triggered by abuse, often if the victim already has an attachment disorder; and that "gay culture" is inherently toxic because it is based on trauma and the belief that "sex cures all". The reader may come to their own conclusion; but even the most fervently pro-gay one should give this book a try, at least to see why Moira's stance is comprehensible given what she has lived through. Her father was undoubtedly correct on history: if we look at gay history, it is filled with pederasts (like its patron saint Oscar Wilde) and it's rife with sexual abuse (Harvey Milk's story is such an example; abused as a young teen, he "dated" teenagers as an adult). It is also true that mental disorders that are more common in gay populations are, essentially, the result of early arrested development, like Narcissistic Personality Disorder or Borderline. Gay porn is rife with "daddy/son" fetishes (essentially pederasty) and gay culture glorifies them, as we can see in the recent film "Call me by your name".
All in all, food for thought.
Greylands' book should should be read by everyone who has never really stopped to think about the impact on children of a self-centred, sex-centred ethos, and everyone who just assumes "the children will be fine."
I cried for the loss of her innocence
I cried for the loss of her normality
I cried because parental love was conditional, when it was suppose to be unconditional.
I cried for the loss of her childhood
I cried for the loss of her teenage years
I cried for the loss of her early adult years
I cried there was no one to save her
I smile because she didn’t give up
I smiled because she was defiant
I smiled because she’s a fighter
I smiled because she’s a survivor
I smile because she’s my everyday hero
I smile because by telling her story she’s saving others.
Moira is the pinnacle of Love. Forgiveness. Compassion and Mercy.
A must read but be warned... expect to read things nightmares are made of.
If this wasn’t Moiras life it would be an Oscar winning horror story
It is a very difficult book to read, and I needed to take frequent breaks from it.
How we parent our children, and the people we allow into our homes, greatly affects our children for the rest of their lives. Children need to be nutured, loved, and protected, and Moira had none of these. She had no adult who saw her as a human being. Despite all, she learned how to focus her creative energy.
Her story is a testiment to the strength of the human spirit, but also how actions of cruel abusive adults towards children deeply tramautizes and affects them for the rest of their lives. There are people in this world, who, believe they have every right to whatever and whoever they want. They have no conscience and no compassion. It seems unbelievable, but they exist.
I couldn't read the appendix with the court documents of her father's sexual abuse of young boys. It is too awful for words.