Is it not quite plain, that He is saying that if your pastor or priest -- whatever his "apostolic succession" -- continues to preach false doctrine after he has been admonished, you should leave that church?
The terrible decline in the Church of England was abetted every step of the way by orthodox Christians who put up with what their Lord told them not to put up with.
(Obviously I am not referring to you personally, Dr. Charlton.)
The same thing has happened here in the States in Episcopalian, Lutheran, Presbyterian, and Roman Catholic congregations. People stick around when they *know* that what Pastor or Father is spouting is not true, and they continue to support the church financially as well.
There would be a lot less need for backlash now if people had obeyed Jesus and walked out years, or decades, ago.
The C of E was supposed to be guided by tradition, reason and scripture.
Tradition was swiftly rejected as evil, so that was no brake on corruption.
Reason was subverted by the idea that anything not explicitly prohibited was allowed (and even if it was explicitly prohibited, then modern Biblical scholarship could confuse the issue by throwing up a sandstorm of discussion about translations, historical context etc).
Which only leaves scripture as a guide (which is why Bible-based denominations are now the strongest) - yet even scripture has been subverted by Biblical scholarship, multiple Bible translations, versions and adaptations/ re-writings; and the post-Reformation tendency to assume that that which is not prescribed is prohibited and that temptations must be eliminated (rather than pursuing a middle way) - making Bible-based churches narrow and dry by the standards of historical Christianity.
What a mess!
Congregations were left thoroughly confused and self-doubting; and then made expedient choices to reduce friction with the secular world and to remain part of the mainstream; and so the ratchet of corruption commenced.
22 October 2012 at 15:21
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A secular Leftist-led (or infiltrated) organization can corrupt its members for a long time, by introducing and over-emphasizing secular Left priorities (egalitarianism, 'diversity', environmentalism etc).
When an organization becomes thoroughly corrupted by secular Leftism - as are the mainstream Christian denominations, the universities and schools, the legal profession, and every other powerful institution - then it may begin to subvert its own corruption.
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The corrupting effect of liberal Christian groups is achieved because the nihilistic poison is sugared by elements of retained Christianity.
Indeed, the corruption would not be effective unless it contained elements of genuine good.
(The measure of the effectiveness of secular Leftist infiltration of the churches is therefore seen mainly in the older members of the congregations; people who used to be devout traditionalist Christians, but who have - by insensible, incremental stages - being led into unperceived apostasy.)
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So all really bad things - Communism, Fascism, Modern Art - contain elements of good; and this is precisely why they are so dangerous.
(Thoroughly, explicitly and obviously bad things never get anywhere, never last long.)
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Therefore, since bad must be mixed-with good; as institutional corruption proceeds towards complete destruction of all that is good, there comes a point when the attempt to corrupt becomes susceptible to a backlash.
Even the most wordly and secularized Leftist Christian church cannot help but include elements of Christianity. And at some point the congregation will themselves be so corrupted by the anti-Christian propaganda of these churches (in line iwth secular society), that these residual Christian elements (which cannot altogether be eradicated) will serve a positive Christianizing purpose.
(A member of the congregation might suddenly and unpredictably take notice of some of the words they speak or hear; they might even - more dangerously - pick-up and read an Authorized Version of the Bible or the Book of Common Prayer! They might, despite all misinformation and counter-incentives take it seriously!)
Thus, against a baseline of extreme corruption including propagandized and coercive inversion of truth, beauty and virtue; then even the slightest sniff of the Good (which seems impossible to avoid altogether) may well strike a positive response from the population that are being force fed on toxic swill.
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I wonder if we may reach such a point?
The point when people stop actively wanting ever more evil under the pretence that evil is good; and (as is natural) begin again to regard good as good, evil as evil; truth as real; beauty as lovely?
Will Christian congregations then react with horror to their subversive Priests and Pastors; students be revolted by the careerist lies and cynicism of their teachers; media consumers become nauseated by their own manipulation?
It may happen.
Indeed, I don't see how it could be stopped - unless, and in so far as, human nature was itself changed.
"Speculation on a traditionalist backlash"
2 Comments -
Read St. Matthew 15:14.
How much wiggle room does our Lord give us there?
Is it not quite plain, that He is saying that if your pastor or priest -- whatever his "apostolic succession" -- continues to preach false doctrine after he has been admonished, you should leave that church?
The terrible decline in the Church of England was abetted every step of the way by orthodox Christians who put up with what their Lord told them not to put up with.
(Obviously I am not referring to you personally, Dr. Charlton.)
The same thing has happened here in the States in Episcopalian, Lutheran, Presbyterian, and Roman Catholic congregations. People stick around when they *know* that what Pastor or Father is spouting is not true, and they continue to support the church financially as well.
There would be a lot less need for backlash now if people had obeyed Jesus and walked out years, or decades, ago.
22 October 2012 at 14:42
@Dale, Indeed.
The C of E was supposed to be guided by tradition, reason and scripture.
Tradition was swiftly rejected as evil, so that was no brake on corruption.
Reason was subverted by the idea that anything not explicitly prohibited was allowed (and even if it was explicitly prohibited, then modern Biblical scholarship could confuse the issue by throwing up a sandstorm of discussion about translations, historical context etc).
Which only leaves scripture as a guide (which is why Bible-based denominations are now the strongest) - yet even scripture has been subverted by Biblical scholarship, multiple Bible translations, versions and adaptations/ re-writings; and the post-Reformation tendency to assume that that which is not prescribed is prohibited and that temptations must be eliminated (rather than pursuing a middle way) - making Bible-based churches narrow and dry by the standards of historical Christianity.
What a mess!
Congregations were left thoroughly confused and self-doubting; and then made expedient choices to reduce friction with the secular world and to remain part of the mainstream; and so the ratchet of corruption commenced.
22 October 2012 at 15:21