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Post a Comment On: Bruce Charlton's Notions

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Anonymous Anonymous said...

The way I see it, the opening of the 'heart', which is really a change in one's state of mind, is the entire content or purpose of religion. The particular beliefs are not important except possibly where they are 'tuned' to a particular age and culture. But this can be problematic for subsequent generations who no longer sympathise with all the beliefs.

22 May 2015 at 14:09

Anonymous Joel said...

Unfortunately, there are already branches of Christianity without very much doctrinal integrity. They seem to inevitably and quickly be drawn into Phariseeism of whatever the non-Christian cultural majority viewpoint is.

Phariseeism is deep problem within the human heart, but less attachment to doctrine or scripture has been tried many times, and the results are not pretty.

There are solutions. Emphasize the narratives in sermons, not isolated chunks of scripture. Retell the stories. Don't talk about the meaning of the resurrection, tell the story of the resurrection, the death, the appearances.

The doctrine you see in a thriving church is an expression of having inhaled the first-century worldview, not a construct. Stanley Hauerwas, I think, is the Christian theologian most in touch with the problem, and well worth a read if you are not already familiar with him.

22 May 2015 at 15:26

Blogger Bruce Charlton said...

@Anon - My point is a bit different - I am not saying that beliefs are not important; I am saying that having the right beliefs is irrelevant if the heart is hard.

So, Christians should insist in a good (open, warm) heart as absolutely essential and non-negotiable in those with responsibility and influence.

Given that there are not many perfect humans around; this means that it will almost always be necessary to allow some flexibility over beliefs, practices, and behaviours.

So, what I am recommending is almost exactly the opposite of what usually happens in modern bureaucracies, and indeed in many church situations throughout history.

A fixation on what Fr Seraphim Rose called ultra-correctness rapidly end by destroying Christianity and leaving an evil, hypocritical fake.

22 May 2015 at 15:29

Blogger Bruce Charlton said...

@Joel - Good advice.

My post was provoked by the dismay at reading blog comments around the reactionary/ trad Christian internet from self-righteous haters (from many Christian denominations) who parade an ultra-orthodoxy which seems to function primarily as an excuse to condemn anyone they wish to condemn (including much better Christians than themselves - which is not saying much - since in reality they are not Christians at all).

I think Christians need to be strict about the secular litmus test issues, especially relating to the sexual revolution, but detailed aspects of theology and doctrine and lifestyle cannot, and probably should not, be so strictly enforced. The venom which is directed by some Christians against others for such differences is appalling to me.

(Leaving aside Mormons); there is a gleeful viciousness in the way that mainstream Christians refer to some self-identified Christians in smaller or newer churches as 'cults', and utterly reject their status as Christians. I regard this attitude as self-refuting.

22 May 2015 at 15:48

Blogger August said...

I see this argument, and I think about it, but I don't think it applies to me. I don't hate, but I am an old brother- I want the wayward ones to straighten up and learn the right way to behave. I want them to avoid hell rather than to go to hell.

What passes for love these days is incipient.

22 May 2015 at 16:08

Anonymous Anonymous said...

@Bruce

Yes, I got your point and apologies for switching course slightly. I think I'm responding to the way that you and most religionists seem to think about beliefs: that they can be adopted by an act of will. For me, merely trying to defend or verbally repeat some position in public doesn't make it a true belief: it has to be a living perception (when grokked) or at least form part of a prevailing rational explanation. I don't get to choose, unless I'm fooling myself.

OTOH, I think some ideas do gain a special significance and meaning to some people -- ideas which steer them towards the point where they can discover and open their hearts.

For example, C.S. Lewis's memory of his brother's garden scene in a biscuit tin.

I guess this is how religions are born; when such personal ideas are shared with others by some dynamic or charismatic individual. Yet aren't the ideas selected, or intended, if you like, for the original recipient alone?

That is, each mind vaguely remembers its early bliss, free of fear and any concept of self. It subsequently manifests a voice or advocate for returning to that open and loving state.

But the precise ideas needed relate to the individual concerned. Pre-packaged beliefs aren't reliable.

22 May 2015 at 19:35

Anonymous Arakawa said...

@August

There is a crucial difference when you apply that argument to straightening someone out in their behaviour vs straightening someone out in their doctrines.

If you are straightening someone out in their behaviours and pointing out their sins, you will likely temper your approach because even a cursory examination of conscience will reveal your own behaviour to be far from perfect. Perhaps you are not guilty of the exact same sin as the wayward ones, but of something else that is equally sobering.

If you are straightening someone out in the orthodoxy of their doctrines, it is very easy to delude yourself that you are 100.0% free of any doctrinal deviation without creative interpretation whatsoever, not adding the least bit of personal beliefs or experience, whence your voice is the infallible voice of the Church. Fallen humanity being what it is, this has a coarsening effect on one's heart and behaviour. In fact one is more likely to have heard 12 different people proclaiming 12 approximately plausible interpretations of the orthodox doctrine, and then have picked whichever one wants to believe. Acknowledging this does not prevent denunciation of actual destructive beliefs... but it would throw cold water on most people's motivation for engaging in minute heresy-hunting.

22 May 2015 at 22:36

Blogger Bruce Charlton said...

@Ara - Weird synchronicity - I have *just* checked out your blog for the first time in a while and commented...

22 May 2015 at 22:57

Blogger August said...

I don't think most people can even understand doctrine. I have tried to have conversations about it- not denouncing people, mind you, but just talking about something I found in my readings- and people's eyes usually glaze over and they say it doesn't matter.
Somehow, I imagine that if our ancestors had various fights about it, then it did matter.

The real disrespect is not the man who says you are a heretic.

27 May 2015 at 15:33

Blogger Gabe Ruth said...

Good post, it's worth mentioning that another way of thinking about this bent towards literalness is that people come into the grip of an ideology. The ideology gives them all the answers, permitting no deviation, ignoring particular situations and circumstances. It can be a very comforting, confident-feeling state, which explains its prevalence.

There is much that has been written about this human tendency, Eric Voegelin in particular is helpful in discerning the markers of an ideologue.

10 June 2015 at 19:12