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Post a Comment On: Bruce Charlton's Notions

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Blogger Hermit said...

As a former atheist and now a devout traditional catholic following an individual mystical path I think I can understand what you are saying based on my personal experience.

My old atheism was directly related to my previous leftism and my christian modernism: liberal christianity makes no sense and I abandoned it after trying to bash the church from the inside.
Many liberal christians are christian only in their name and I fear their children will reject religion very easily.

But what about devout christians who just wants to change the "rules" of all time to get with the times?
They are doing the job for the enemy and thinks they are saving christianity by following the way of the world, how is that even possible? How can they not see?

My theory is that is very difficult for normal people to see the true meaning of liberal christianity (aka no christianity) because the entire popular culture brainwash us every day with political correctness and distorted values they call tolerance, equality and liberty.
For converts like me it's different: we know the error, we supported the error and then rejected it, we know very well why those fake values are wrong and how detrimental they are to christianity.

For this reason many times converts become tough apologets and are very harsh against modernists: they know the error and they fight like hounds of the faith.
No one attacks an idea more harshly than a person who rejected it.

22 June 2014 at 09:50

Blogger Bruce Charlton said...

@Hermit - thanks for that.

Another aspect is that mainstream secular culture has adopted a few Christian concepts but changed the meaning - so Christians are very confused by things such as the instruction not to 'judge' others (it merely means not to be sure whether another person is damned or saved - but moderns think it means that individuals should not evaluate moral behaviour); or the Christian injunction to forgive, which moderns seem to suppose means wiping the slate clean and not punishing wrongdoing and pretending that a person's past actions are irrelevant to the probabilities of future behaviour - whereas it really means (more like) we should not surrender to resentment and hatred.

22 June 2014 at 12:18

Anonymous Adam G. said...

Astute.

In fact, liberal Mormons often insist that Mormonism is purely "orthopraxic" (concerned with right behavior), not orthodoxic (concerned with right belief), contrary to all the evidence. They then say say that they are justified in attacking the Mormon faith because they go to church every Sunday (although even on their own terms, they lie; they want masturbation and fornication and childlessness and any number of other behavioral evils to be condoned).

22 June 2014 at 16:48

Blogger Lee Ann Setzer said...

A useful effect of the whole priesthood controversy, for me as a Mormon woman who is annoyed and offended by a vocal minority's assumption that I'm a downtrodden cog in a male-dominated machine, has been the need to step back and take a look at doctrine, and metaphysics as I've personally experienced it. What IS the doctrine, first of all? How does it relate to the Plan of Salvation, as Mormons understand it? Am I following it for the right reasons? I hope we're off the front page soon, and that there are no lasting wounds, but it's been a good exercise in self-examination.

22 June 2014 at 17:19

Blogger Bruce Charlton said...

@Adam - I saw this view most sharply when I read a book of biographical interviews with Sterling McMurrin. He was a strong Democrat who ended up a strange combination of someone who lived the Mormon life (as he had been brought up to) while disbelieving in pretty much all the underlying basis of that life. (Although he was maybe the first person who was able to explain Mormonism to itself in terms of theology and metaphysics).

McMurrin argued that this was a viable combination - and for him it was - but it was not sustainable across the generations, and in face of the escalating role of the Mass media.

@Lee Ann - Thanks for your first comment here! Hope all is well with you and Steve.

22 June 2014 at 17:35

Anonymous MC said...

The leaders of this movement are not deluded. They are at best indifferent to any negative consequences of conforming Mormonism to their desires. Unlike the countless people who leave Mormonism because it doesn't suit them, they have counted the cost of leaving as too high. Loss of friends, the rhythm of life, certain aspects that they actually like. They don't care what happens to the church so long as they can be wholly secular in outlook without actually leaving the church.

22 June 2014 at 21:05

Blogger Bruce Charlton said...

@Imnobody - http://charltonteaching.blogspot.co.uk/2013/12/what-is-status-of-non-denominational.html

23 June 2014 at 05:17

Anonymous Imnobody said...

@Bruce

Thanks

23 June 2014 at 18:47

Blogger Meg Stout said...

I figure God will do whatever He needs to do to save his children. So I look to the parable of the olive grove (Jacob 5).

I will try to produce good fruit and nourish good roots, since I don't want me and mine on the rubbish heap.

Hi Lee Ann!

25 June 2014 at 21:44

Blogger Bruce Charlton said...

@Meg Stout

Welcome! I often read your work at M* with appreciation.

If you are new here, I have collected some of my Mormon posts at:

http://theoreticalmormon.blogspot.co.uk

26 June 2014 at 06:03