Perhaps your commenter "Joel" who posted in the "arguments for atheism" thread that the "problem of evil" has not been convincingly answered... is actually Justin Welby.
There is not one 'answer' to this problem - because the nature of a valid answer depends on the underlying metaphysics of a Christian's belief.
But whether Eastern or Western Catholic, Calvinist, Evangelical or Mormon or whatever else - this is one of the basic things that *all* _thoughtful_ Christians have sorted out (to their own satisfaction, at least) usually before or soon after conversion.
To claim to have had one's faith put into doubt by newspaper reports of merely the latest in innumerable acts of horrible terrorism across the span of recorded history, is revelatory of shallow brainless insincerity - at best!
23 November 2015 at 14:38
Leo said...
Bruce,
Yes, indeed.
For your thoughtful consideration: Chapter 3 of The Master and Margareta (The Seventh Proof) http://www.masterandmargarita.eu/estore/pdf/eben001_mastermargarita_glenny.pdf
Also http://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/conversation-with-the-haitian-driver/ and http://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/kiss-devil-paris-terror/
None of this should be used to draw conclusions as to why this particular massacre occurred when and how it did other than to note that evil is a recorded factor in all of human history. One might think that moderns might pick up a clue that good and evil are part of the fabric of a universe which has real, supernatural, and enduring meanings with real actors manifesting that underlying reality.
23 November 2015 at 15:49
Joel said...
@Bruce and @JP: I seem some shallowness on display here, but not from Welby.
Martin Luther had major struggles with doubts. I shouldn't need to mention C.S. Lewis here.
Right now, in your churches, there are many Christians struggling with doubts. If you have strong faith in the face of this or other evils, go and share your faith with them. That's why it has been given you. However, if you were to tell them instead that their doubts make them false Christians, then you will have certainly "stumbled the least of your brothers." Even saying it here, I think, advances into dangerous territory.
Now, I feel that God has given my heart sufficient answer to the problem of evil. But to say that I could take God's answer to me, and package it up into a logical argument to be handed out like a pamphlet with my name on it to prove the truth to all rational thinkers -- what foolishness! Man's logic is no answer to the problem of evil. The Good News about Christ's victory over evil must be communicated heart to heart.
Welby's BBC audience does not even know what are the Christian doctrines that Welby is supposed to be 'doubting' - even worse, neither does Welby.
There is a cult of Christian 'doubts' being driven by the idea that this is a mark of sophistication and depth. Doubts are all-but inevitable in any Christian's lifespan - but they are not 'a good thing'. Of course they can be learned from, and the faith that emerges on the other side of doubts can be stronger (just as overcoming sin may also be strengthening) - but the minimal-attention-span mass audience is incapable of understanding this level of three-step complexity, and they will be encouraged to stop at the first step of 'doubts good/ no doubts dumb'.
In sum, doubts must not be advertized nor boasted about, and should properly be discussed in some degree of privacy - or at the very least on a small scale.
For the Archbishop to air his 'doubts' on TV means exactly how the mass audience will surely interpret it - that when he talks about Christianity he doesn't *really* believe what he says.
What *would* impress me would be if Welby aired his 'doubts' about his true agenda of multi-culti-diversity-antiracism-class war. But then, he has no doubts at all about the ultimate Goodness of Leftism - and would never dream of propogating the idea that it was OK even momentarily to doubt the rightness of PC.
Quite simply, there is brutality and hardship in the world, as well as love and beauty, because men must have free will, and must suffer the consequences of his decisions. Even an Archbishop should be able to understand that.
23 November 2015 at 22:25
Anonymous said...
"I was praying and saying: 'God why - why is this happening? Where are you in all this?'"
Well, Your Excellency, you are supposed to be one of his agents--where are you? Why are you speaking rather more like a civilian of religion than a soldier?
He might better have said words to this effect: "Once again, innocent people are killed because daily more and more young men are duped into believing that God only rewards those who die a spectacular and, frankly, hubristic death rather than live humbly and work for a just cause, and that martyrdom is to be sought as if for its own sake!"
Then he could quote St. Paul: "If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing. Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails."
Actually preaching to them. What a notion.
24 November 2015 at 07:58
Leo said...
Also recommended for your consideration: Creation and the Persistence of Evil by Jon D. Levenson http://press.princeton.edu/titles/5555.html in book form http://www3.nd.edu/~ganders2/Leviticus/LEVENSON%20creation.pdf in pdf
24 November 2015 at 09:13
pwyll said...
More "progress" from the CoE: http://www.anglicanink.com/article/christian-naturism-advocate-appointed-bishop-sherborne
2 December 2015 at 16:39
Aside from the fact that he is not a Christian (but merely a Christianized socialist) any doubts that any Christians may have had that Justin Welby is the most cognitively-mediocre man ever to head the Anglican communion (still the third largest Christian denomination in the world) have been dispelled by his latest musings communicated to the BBC (aka the UK Antichrist).
Justin Welby said he was left asking why the attacks happened, and where God was in the French victims' time of need. He said he reacted with "profound sadness" at the events, particularly because he and his wife had lived in Paris.Asked if these attacks had caused him to doubt where God is, he said: "Oh gosh, yes," and admitted it put a "chink in his armour.He told BBC Songs Of Praise: "Yes. Saturday morning - I was out and as I was walking I was praying and saying: 'God why - why is this happening? Where are you in all this?' and then engaging and talking to God. Yes, I doubt."
The depths of theological ignorance, the feebleness and superficiality of the man's supposed faith are staggering - is he really unaware that things like this have happened rather a lot over the past two thousand years? Has he really not thought through this matter before?
Or is he perhaps dishonestly pretending to doubt, perhaps in order to help atheists identify with him or so as to fit-in with the secular Leftist mainstream? (The man is a multi-documented and calculating liar, after all.)
All in all, this is yet more evidence that the mainstream Christian church leadership in the West are strongly anti-Christian in net-effect (whatever their ignorant and foolish intentions may be).
With so much apparently-authoritative misinformation and misrepresentation of Christianity in the public arena - we must assume that the mass majority of the Western populations are not just ignorant about the faith - but have an actively misleading pseudo-knowledge - something that is much harder to correct.
"Welby Watch - Archbishop of Canterbury plumbs new depths"
9 Comments -
Perhaps your commenter "Joel" who posted in the "arguments for atheism" thread that the "problem of evil" has not been convincingly answered... is actually Justin Welby.
23 November 2015 at 14:27
@JP - Naughty...
There is not one 'answer' to this problem - because the nature of a valid answer depends on the underlying metaphysics of a Christian's belief.
But whether Eastern or Western Catholic, Calvinist, Evangelical or Mormon or whatever else - this is one of the basic things that *all* _thoughtful_ Christians have sorted out (to their own satisfaction, at least) usually before or soon after conversion.
To claim to have had one's faith put into doubt by newspaper reports of merely the latest in innumerable acts of horrible terrorism across the span of recorded history, is revelatory of shallow brainless insincerity - at best!
23 November 2015 at 14:38
Bruce,
Yes, indeed.
For your thoughtful consideration:
Chapter 3 of The Master and Margareta (The Seventh Proof) http://www.masterandmargarita.eu/estore/pdf/eben001_mastermargarita_glenny.pdf
Also http://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/conversation-with-the-haitian-driver/
and http://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/kiss-devil-paris-terror/
None of this should be used to draw conclusions as to why this particular massacre occurred when and how it did other than to note that evil is a recorded factor in all of human history. One might think that moderns might pick up a clue that good and evil are part of the fabric of a universe which has real, supernatural, and enduring meanings with real actors manifesting that underlying reality.
23 November 2015 at 15:49
@Bruce and @JP: I seem some shallowness on display here, but not from Welby.
Martin Luther had major struggles with doubts. I shouldn't need to mention C.S. Lewis here.
Right now, in your churches, there are many Christians struggling with doubts. If you have strong faith in the face of this or other evils, go and share your faith with them. That's why it has been given you. However, if you were to tell them instead that their doubts make them false Christians, then you will have certainly "stumbled the least of your brothers." Even saying it here, I think, advances into dangerous territory.
Now, I feel that God has given my heart sufficient answer to the problem of evil. But to say that I could take God's answer to me, and package it up into a logical argument to be handed out like a pamphlet with my name on it to prove the truth to all rational thinkers -- what foolishness! Man's logic is no answer to the problem of evil. The Good News about Christ's victory over evil must be communicated heart to heart.
23 November 2015 at 16:09
@Joel - Nonsense!
Welby's BBC audience does not even know what are the Christian doctrines that Welby is supposed to be 'doubting' - even worse, neither does Welby.
There is a cult of Christian 'doubts' being driven by the idea that this is a mark of sophistication and depth. Doubts are all-but inevitable in any Christian's lifespan - but they are not 'a good thing'. Of course they can be learned from, and the faith that emerges on the other side of doubts can be stronger (just as overcoming sin may also be strengthening) - but the minimal-attention-span mass audience is incapable of understanding this level of three-step complexity, and they will be encouraged to stop at the first step of 'doubts good/ no doubts dumb'.
In sum, doubts must not be advertized nor boasted about, and should properly be discussed in some degree of privacy - or at the very least on a small scale.
For the Archbishop to air his 'doubts' on TV means exactly how the mass audience will surely interpret it - that when he talks about Christianity he doesn't *really* believe what he says.
What *would* impress me would be if Welby aired his 'doubts' about his true agenda of multi-culti-diversity-antiracism-class war. But then, he has no doubts at all about the ultimate Goodness of Leftism - and would never dream of propogating the idea that it was OK even momentarily to doubt the rightness of PC.
23 November 2015 at 18:21
Quite simply, there is brutality and hardship in the world, as well as love and beauty, because men must have free will, and must suffer the consequences of his decisions. Even an Archbishop should be able to understand that.
23 November 2015 at 22:25
"I was praying and saying: 'God why - why is this happening? Where are you in all this?'"
Well, Your Excellency, you are supposed to be one of his agents--where are you? Why are you speaking rather more like a civilian of religion than a soldier?
He might better have said words to this effect: "Once again, innocent people are killed because daily more and more young men are duped into believing that God only rewards those who die a spectacular and, frankly, hubristic death rather than live humbly and work for a just cause, and that martyrdom is to be sought as if for its own sake!"
Then he could quote St. Paul: "If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing. Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails."
Actually preaching to them. What a notion.
24 November 2015 at 07:58
Also recommended for your consideration:
Creation and the Persistence of Evil by Jon D. Levenson
http://press.princeton.edu/titles/5555.html in book form
http://www3.nd.edu/~ganders2/Leviticus/LEVENSON%20creation.pdf in pdf
24 November 2015 at 09:13
More "progress" from the CoE: http://www.anglicanink.com/article/christian-naturism-advocate-appointed-bishop-sherborne
2 December 2015 at 16:39