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Post a Comment On: Bruce Charlton's Notions

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Blogger David Balfour said...

Choices determine destiny!

19 May 2016 at 22:48

Blogger Bix Cvvv said...

Fascinating post, Bruce. Just to add a footnote that does not contradict anything you said - "Many modern people seem not to like their birth families" - True, of course, and not just for moderns. One of the great epical fictional plots is the slowly achieved but complete success of a person "raised" in the wrong family (often aided - at a distance, for purposes of furthering the plot - by the "true" parents or their surrogates) at overcoming the direct and indirect wickedness inflicted by the imposter family in whose home the first tragic chapters of the story were set. To put this in actual real-world terms, my optimistic guess is that no less than one out of ten, and probably closer to one out of five, parents in the Western world are frequently, consciously, objectively and unrepentantly unkind to one, some, most, or (rarely) all of their children (I would love to be wrong about this!, but I am probably not). The numbers are probably worse in most of the non-Western world. Jesus, who chose the worst of deaths, did not choose to be the child of unkind parents. That is something to remember when trying to understand happiness in this world and the next - one can only imagine the level of compassion Jesus must feel for those babies born into cold-hearted families - His sorrow for that fantastically lonely suffering that, as far as recorded history goes, He did not - perhaps chose not - to have to undergo as a human. If, as many think, God loves some of us more than others, it is extremely unlikely that the babies of cold-hearted parents are among those who are less loved by God...So maybe they are - even if they do not feel worthy of wanting families of their own - safer from the tragedy of not finally choosing Heaven than those who were luckier than them with respect to the assigned birth family .... Just a thought...

20 May 2016 at 04:05

Blogger AnteB said...

Interesting speculations...

You take seriously the Christian claim that God gave us free will. It is a problem that classic Christianity have difficulties with because 1) There is only one acceptable choice, which is God and all others lead to eternal suffering and 2) God´s grace is necessary for people to repent and to choose the right things.

While the second point may be true it also undermines the claim that humans are free creatures. It makes it difficult to view God as wholly good if you combine it with the notion that most people are or will be damned. God gave us free will so we are responsible for our damnation but every one that is saved is so because of the grace of God allows this person to repent. Some persons are given enough grace but others aren´t (I think the Catholics make a distinction between necessary and efficient grace).

For me no classical Christian accounts of/solutions for the paradox of our free will AND our utter dependency on God have been really convincing. Sorry if links in comments are not allowed but this meditation by David Bentley Hart is quite beautiful I think.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3dOsKzh7Kyw

20 May 2016 at 13:47

Blogger Bruce Charlton said...

@AnteB - I don't have time to review the DBH vid but I have read a fair bit of his stuff (my Calvinistic friend Alastair Roberts thinks very highly of him) and am happy enough to post it without forming an opinion on it.

You mention - 2) God´s grace is necessary for people to repent and to choose the right things. --- This is something I don't endorse because I regard Men as eternally pre-existing before mortal life (albeit not a fully-human chidlren of God) and therefore not created-from-nothing by God but created from something - and therefore having the basis for genuine agency.

(I'm not sure if you already know, but my theology is Mormon although I am not a church member.)

20 May 2016 at 14:50

Blogger AnteB said...

Yes, I know that you hold Mormon beliefs. Those beliefs probably deals with theological problems, like the contradiction I mentioned, or the problem of evil in a more direct and credible manner but also opens up for other issues.

I followed your blog for a while now and the issues with the omnipotence of God seem to have led you toward Mormornism. The importance of family in Mormon theology is another reason, and the vitality of Mormon communities is yet another. What would you say have been most important?

20 May 2016 at 18:32

Anonymous Adam G. said...

This is an excellent essay.

But I find that novelistic explanations, or real life experience, work better.

Read the Great Divorce.

Or just consider your own life and the circle of your friends. Are there not any number of shabby little crutches that it terrifies you to let go of? How many people do you know that keep running aground on the same problem, and get irrational when you try to talk to them about it?

People who refuse to believe in a freely chosen Hell are people who have never encountered sin, which means they have never been married, have never had children, and have never examined their own lives with the lies stripped off.

20 May 2016 at 19:23

Blogger Bruce Charlton said...

@Adam G- The Great Divorce by CS Lewis has been a big influence. I once read an excellent essay on that book - perhaps you already know it? ;)

http://timesandseasons.org/mormonreview/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/Mormon-Review-V3-N12.pdf

20 May 2016 at 21:27

Blogger Bruce Charlton said...

@AnteB - I was initially attracted to the social and fertility aspects of the CJCLDS. Once I understood it properly - which took a few years - I then found Mormon theology deeply beautiful and satisfying. I was initially attracted by the solutions to the 'problem of pain and 'free will', but now wonder at the coherence of the whole explanatory system and its ability easily to make sense of mortal life in the eternal and divine context. For me, as a capstone, the work of William Arkle made explicit and clarified the divine motivation behind the whole of creation.

20 May 2016 at 21:34