And now from the Institute of Politics at the University of Chicago and CNN Audio, the Axe Files, with your host, David Axelrod.

'Six years ago, I had a conversation right here with Vladimir Kara-Murza, the incredibly inspiring Russian journalist and democracy advocate who by then had already survived two poisonings and currently sits in a small solitary cell in Siberia, sentenced to 25 years for, among other things, speaking out against Putin's war in Ukraine. This week I sat down with his valiant wife, Evgenia, who is continuing Vladimir's work, traveling the world, challenging Putin's dictatorship, and fighting for her husband and all political prisoners in Russia. Here's that conversation.

Well, I hope that when my children grow up, they'll understand why I was doing that. Frankly, you know, part of why I'm doing this is because I want my children to be able to go back to a free and democratic Russia. We're in the 21st century now. Russia is a European country. It's not okay to have one man clinging to power for two decades and stealing blind. I mean, that's that's not the normal course of events. You know, when my children grow up and they ask me, you know, daddy, what did you do when all this was happening to our country? I want to have something to answer to them.

'That was the voice of Vladimir Kara-Murza, historian, journalist and democracy advocate in Russia, who currently is sitting in a punishment cell in Siberia for speaking out against the war in Ukraine and other offenses trumped up by the Putin regime. And with me is his wife and now an eloquent fellow advocate of Evgenia Kara-Murza. Evgenia, thank you so much for joining me.

Hello, David. Thank you very much for inviting me.

You've been carrying on this battle for him and for political prisoners in Russia around the world. But before we talk about all of that, first of all, welcome. And secondly, I just want to talk a little bit about you and how you guys came together and and what life is like now. So just tell me a little bit about yourself. I know you, your father was in the Coast Guard, and you were born in the Kuril Islands in the far east of Russia. I think there's still disputes with Japan over who exactly has jurisdiction over those islands. But talk to me about yourself and your growing up.

Yes. I was indeed born on the Kuril Islands, near Japan. And my parents traveled a lot. They moved a lot across the former Soviet Union. So I, I lived in many cities before we settled in Moscow. And, I also had one set of grandparents in the north of Russia in Murmansk. My mom's parents. And my father's parents used to live in the south of Russia, in the [inaudible]. And so I did this, you know, I would fly from, from the Kuril Islands, crossing the entire country to see one set of grandparents and spend my summers with another set of grandparents and back to the Kuril Island and, you know. So we traveled a lot, and I think it made me a bit of the cosmopolitan, truly, because I, nowadays, I believe that my home is where my loved ones are, and I build my nest around the people. I. And I am, I am a curious person. I love being exposed to different cultures, to different languages. I studied linguistics and foreign languages in college. I always loved that the diversity of the world. And because I'm so curious, I find something interesting, something valuable, something something great about any place I come to.

And you. You moved to Moscow when you were 11. Is that right?

No, I, I was just about to turn seven, and we, we came to Moscow, and my mom had been very loyally traveling with my father across the country. Every what she gave birth to me on the on this small island in the middle of the Pacific Ocean while my father was at sea. And my mom had to walk through the island to the hospital. So she's really a fighter herself. A warrior, truly. But we came to Moscow and she said, that's it. She, and she meant me, she needs, some stability in her life. She needs to go to school. She needs a good college. And she said, well, I'm staying. That's it. And my, my father, who was absolutely in love with my mom, they were married in 1977 and they're still madly in love with each other. So my father said, well, yes, he again, he went along and we stayed in Moscow. And that's where I went to school and graduated from school and went to the Moscow Linguistics University to study languages, to study French, that I adored. And I, I wanted to be a French translator and interpreter. That was, I don't know, from the age of like eighth grade. I think. That's when I decided that I would become an interpreter. And I loved that job. And I, I did work as an interpreter for several years.

I guess what, I was mistaken is that you met Vladimir for the first time, perhaps, when you were 11.

That is true. Yeah. I switched schools, I switched schools at the age of 11, and, Vladimir was ten at the time. I was much older and wiser. So, yes, we were classmates for a few years before he moved to the UK. So he finished school in the UK and went to Cambridge. And every year throughout his years in Cambridge, he would come to celebrate his birthday in Moscow, and he would get together as many of our classmates as he could. And I was among these people. So we kept in touch throughout the years. And then, yes, in our last, year in college we got together and have been inseparable.

When you were a kid going through school, was a pretty momentous period in Soviet and then Russian history. This is when the old Soviet Union was dissolving, and the whole experiment with democracy began. Talk about that. Talk about growing up through all of that.

Yeah. I think in our family, Vladimir was the one truly affected by the actual events. And I think that my education mostly came from books. Because, after the collapse of the Soviet Union, we finally got access to all these amazing literature on dissident, on the dissident movement. I read the entire, everything I could find by Remarque. So I have this understanding of the war and the, absolutely the horror of the war. I also read Soviet dissidents, and their memoirs and the stories they told about how life was in the Soviet Union. So I think I was mostly affected by that, by my exposure to all that literature written by people who had been persecuted throughout the Soviets in the Soviet Union. And, also I remember there was this, the grown ups around me would do things, and I would ask questions, why? You know, for example, at some point my father was relocated, moved to Estonia, to Tallinn, and he was offered a position there. So we could have stayed in Tallinn and, in, in the former Soviet Union, you know, in Soviet Union, living in one of the Baltic states was hugely desirable, because this was as close to the West you could get. And life there was much, it was different from everywhere else in the Soviet Union for obvious reasons. And I remember that my father rejected that offer, and he said that he did not want to be an occupier. So I think that my my studies in languages, my studies in literature helped me connect the dots between the events that were happening around me.

It does speak to why autocrats are concerned about the free flow of information. You're a prime example of how exposure to history and literature and truth was a galvanizing thing. But obviously there was some sort of bond between you and Vladimir around those issues because he was deeply, I mean, he came from generations of journalists and historians, and he was deeply motivated at a very early age.

'He is himself a historian. I think that the knowledge of history should be a requirement for a politician in any country around the world, because, you see, the there is the saying by, by Ronald Reagan that if history teaches us anything, it teaches that self-delusion in the face of unpleasant fact is a folly. And we see the proof of that in every state in, in, in the coming to power and the strengthening of the Putin regime in Russia, because for years, the crimes that he committed and his regime committed against the Russian population, suppressing all the freedoms, all the rights of the Russian population and against our neighbors were pretty much ignored. The concern over human rights violations that were happening in Russia did not go beyond just just expressions of concern. And we know that every time a an authoritarian ruler is allowed to get away with committing something like this, he gets more and more convinced that he can get away with something bigger. And we saw that happening over the years. We saw that with the invasion of Georgia, with the annexation of Crimea, with that war crimes committed in Chechnya and then in Syria, and with that, with violent suppression of peaceful protests in the country, and with that completely with the destruction of civil society institutes in the country. So every time the response to these, to these acts of repression and aggression was such that it made him believe that he could get away with more, and he ended up invading, Ukraine. Just starting a full blown war of aggression in the middle of Europe. So, yes, I believe that that knowledge of history is extremely important.

Yeah. Let me, let. Well, let me return to history, then. Which your history and your history with Vladimir. Because I want to talk obviously about everything that you just said. But, I'm just curious as to how you guys came together, whether from the beginning you understood that you you were enlisting in a campaign, as it were, for a free and democratic Russia, that you knew that this was where this guy you were falling in love with wanted, was going to go.

'You know, I think for me, just like for our kids, Vladimir. You know, to, take the kids. They know who the father is. They hear people talk about him. They hear people expressing their admiration and respect for his position or his views. But to our children, he's not. First of all, he's not a politician or a historian or journalist or filmmaker or, you know, one of the many things Vladimir is. For them, to them he is their daddy. He's someone who, which, who taught them how to ride a bike or drive a stick later. He's someone who had father-daughter, father-son days with them. This is someone they could watch a movie with on the couch and just laughing. To me it was the same. I didn't marry a politician. Oh. God forbid. No. Actually, that part of Vladimir has always been to me something of a. I don't know. I, I did not. I never had the ambition of being married to a politician, believe me. To me, he was a funny, extremely smart, intelligent, reliable, loyal person. And he is. He was, is, and will always be someone I will never be bored with. I remember my previous relationships. I always would be bored, would get bored at some point. With Vladimir, never happens. And actually nowadays I see, I think that I would not mind a bit of boredom in my life.

Yes, I'm sure you'd welcome some right now.

Yes, I would actually like to have some. So at the time when we got together, it was not about politics. It was not about him campaigning for against Vladimir Putin and for different Russia. It's just, it was a different kind of connection of two people who realize that they can spend their life together. I looked at him and I thought, yeah, that is the guy I could actually lead my whole life together with. I could grow old with him. I'll be happy to grow old with him. That was what it was built on.

Where where did you guys live when you first got married?

In Moscow.

When he made the decision to to run for the Duma for the parliament in 2003. Talk to me about that and that decision and what you thought about that.

Oh, Vladimir has always wanted to be in Parliament. That is his dream forever and ever. He's not, you know, Vladimir is not. He. He never wanted to be a revolutionary. He never wanted to be on the barricades. That was not the idea. He wanted to be in Russian parliament. He wanted to be a member of the State Duma, to make laws that would make the life of ordinary Russians better. That was his idea. That was his dream. It's, it just Vladimir Putin came to power in 1999 in our country and began turning the country into an authoritarian state. And so very soon, it became obvious that Vladimir would not be able to get elected. In 2003, when he ran, he came second. And, that was the last election that was considered free but not fair by international organizations.

Free in the sense that he could run, but not fair in the sense that he couldn't win regardless of what voters did.

Yes, I can explain. Indeed, he was allowed to put his candidature forward. But during the campaign, interesting things happened. For example, he would, he would still be allowed to participate in, in TV debates. But when it was his turn to speak, the sound would go off. He was allowed to put up his posters around that district in Moscow where he was running. But, and, and the election campaign is, carried out through the, through the fall months. And as you well know, in Russia, in Moscow, it gets very dark very early in the fall months. Around 4 p.m., it's already dark. And so the the lights on his big posters would go off at 4 p.m. every single day. So people who were returning from work and were supposed to see these posters could only see, you know, huge black holes. So things like that happened. And so this was absolutely not fair. And yeah, he came second. But of course, knowing Vladimir, he was very disappointed and very sad.

He was 22 years old, we should point out.

Yes. He was then a young, a young guy, but already very ambitious. He already knew what he wanted to do in life. And that was politics. And politics in Russia, I have to say, because people suggest that he, his, he has a dual Russian, British citizenship, and he could have stayed in the UK and continued and maybe he could have built a political career there. But the moment he graduated, the moment he got his his bachelor degree, he packed his bags and went back to Moscow. And he said that the UK can very well do without me. It is in Russia that my knowledge might come in handy, might be useful. So, yes, he was, he always wanted, and he continues to want that even from behind bars. He wants to be a politician in Russia.

The year after that election, I think, you moved to the US. Tell me why that was and what the discussion was between you that led you to to move to the US?

'Well, first of all, we came for, we thought we came for a year or two. And it was, I think, the reaction to, to losing the election. Because Vladimir needed something new. He needed something to, you know, something uplifting. And he'd always wanted to try TV journalism like his father, a very well known independent TV journalist in post Soviet Russia. One of the first ones. And, and my, my father-in-law worked for the three major TV channels that were closed, one after another. By 2003, they were all closed down by Vladimir Putin. Vladimir Putin knew what he was doing. And propaganda is one of the main instruments of this regime. By 2003, as I said, all independent, major independent TV channels that were readily available to the majority of the Russian population that still relies on TV as the main source of information. These channels were closed down. Vladimir Putin basically created this vacuum, filled it with propaganda, and waited for it to take root. And, today, what we see on TV is absolutely atrocious. There is not one single independent TV channel, and every single channel just projects this, the same propaganda, the same narrative, but sort of delivered in slightly different forms, targeting slightly different audiences. But basically this same narrative of Russia being this huge, great power surrounded by enemies and that everyone out there wants to see Russia on its knees. Everyone wants to see Russia's defeat. That narrative was being forced on the population for over two decades now.

And clearly colors people's attitudes about the war in Ukraine. People who may not be getting some of the information that you can get online and so on, it seems, given the nature of this war, even more important than ever for Putin to try and control the flow of information in the country.

I believe that the war in Ukraine is the only way for Vladimir Putin to stay in power. This is why a victory, any kind of victory, is so important to him. Even if he gets to just keep the illegally occupied territories, he will represent it as a victory and he will remain in power. So this is why beyond the the the first moral reason for Ukraine's victory, I think that there is also this, this argument that the Kremlin has to lose this war and Ukraine has to emerge victorious in this war. That will definitely weaken the regime in the Kremlin, I believe.

We're going to take a short break and we'll be right back with more of the Axe Files. And now back to the show. You came to the US. and you stayed in the US. You said you came for a couple of years. Why did you stay?

Because, well, Vladimir was offered a position of the bureau chief of RTVI that. A TV channel based in New York, Russian TV channel based in New York, that was at the time, independent. And, so, as I said, he's always wanted to try TV journalism and me with, I mean, with my skills of an interpreter and translator, I thought I could do this work anywhere. So we came and we thought would explore this beautiful country. We'd look around. I'd never been to the U.S. before. So we came here, and very soon it became clear that Vladimir would not be able to pursue his journalistic career in Russia, his journalistic work in Russia, because all these independent media were being closed down, banned, and put under extreme pressure. And so we decided, okay, we'd stay for a little bit more, a little bit more. And then the kids were born, and we realized that in order for Vladimir to be able to continue his political activities, his political involvement, the kids needed to be safe. Vladimir is known for risking his life numerous times already, and for staying true to his principles throughout all these assassination attacks and persecution and now this imprisonment. But I know how much he adores his kids, and to him it has always been important that the kids were safe. So basically, I mostly stayed with them, with them here, raising the kids, doing my work. And Vladimir was traveling around the world and doing his thing. And in 2010, he got involved in the campaign for the Magnitsky legislation together with Boris Nemtsov and William Browder. And since then, pressure against him became truly tangible.

Let's just for the benefit of our listeners, we should unpack that. First of all, Boris Nemtsov was a huge figure not just in Russia, but in Vladimir's life. And he talked, we talked about this when he and I spoke back in 2018. But, Nemtsov had been deputy prime minister in the '90s and was seen as someone who could be the next leader, which is why, of course, Putin found him so threatening. Vladimir became one of his advisors and.

At theh age of 18.

Yeah, yeah, extraordinary. And they were very, very close. In 2015, Nemtsov was assassinated just, you know, steps from the Kremlin, was shot to death. Tell me about that moment. Was Vladimir already there, or was he here when you got that news?

Vladimir was in Moscow. He. He spent a lot of time in, in Russia. Not just in Moscow, but just traveling across the regions. Yes. And he was in Moscow in February of 2015. And, he called me to tell me about the assassination, and I couldn't believe it. It is true that over the years they became very close, and, Boris became the godfather of our second daughter. So he was not just Vladimir's colleague and mentor, but he was also someone close to our family. And I know that Vladimir was never able to fully come to terms with Boris' murder. This is why, I think, it was important to him that an investigation be carried out. And of course, in Russia, it was not conducted in a proper way. The organizers and masterminds of that assassination have not yet been found. I mean, ridiculous. But Vladimir working together with Boris' lawyer, Vadim Prokhorov. They approach the then president of the parliamentary assembly of the OSCE, Margareta Cederfelt. And she wrote a very important report on the murder of Boris Nemtsov. And the conclusion of this report was that all the paths lead to the Kremlin. That it was the decision of the Kremlin to have him eliminated. And that was, I know that this was extremely important to Vladimir to have that put in black and white on paper, if not inside of Russia, at least by international organizations. And I know that this is also the reason he started this campaign of renaming streets and squares around the world to honor Boris Nemtsov. And the first renaming happened here in Washington, DC in front of the Russian embassy. And, there's, now, you know, this block with the Boris Nemtsov Square. And when the renaming happened, Vladimir said that he wanted these people at the embassy to look out their windows every single day and see the name of Boris Nemtsov there. And he said that one day he is sure that they will look out of the window and be proud, because people in the embassy will change. And the regime will no longer be there.

How did you process that, Evgenia? How did you process that news? Just about the loss of Nemtsov. You also were close by extension. And what that meant for Vladimir.

Well, Vladimir, as I said, I don't I don't think he has ever been able to fully process it. After the assassination, the first thing he did was, well, he he made a documentary about Boris. And in Vladimir's film, that is available on YouTube and in English as well. When Vladimir does a screening for this film, he always says that this film is not about the death. There is no death. There is no murder in this, in this film. It is a film about the life of a great statesman, a great person who, who Vladimir has always admired and loved. So that was his response. That heroes do not die. And I don't think that he has been able to fully process it. And when people say that this documentary might have been a way for Vladimir to cope, to to go through it and to process it, I usually say that I believe for Vladimir, making this movie was an opportunity to stay with Boris a little longer. That's how I see it.

And how. What about you? Because it wasn't but a few months later, when Vladimir himself was the subject of an assassination attempt. He was poisoned. Did the Nemtsov's murder? Was that a precursor to you? You, you must have been deeply concerned about what was going to happen next.

Well, by that time, we knew that there were people in the Kremlin who did not like what Vladimir was doing. And it was absolutely clear, because when he began working on the Magnitsky legislation, he lost his job at RTVI. The owner had changed, the owner of the TV station had changed. And the only decision of that new owner was to fire Vladimir. And later, it was Boris Nemtsov, actually, who somehow found out. I don't know how, but he found out that the decision had come from the Kremlin. Boris was assassinated in February 2015, and Vladimir collapsed with the first poisoning in May of 2015, exactly three months after the, Boris's assassination. So I think in my head all of that was intertwined. I had not yet been able to process what happened to Boris. And then Vladimir collapsed in Moscow.

You went there?

Yes, absolutely. I went there right away. I just waited for our parents to get here, to take care of the kids. So they jumped on the plane and flew here and in, like, in 48 hours after Vladimir's collapse, I was in Moscow.

I read somewhere, and perhaps he told me, that they said he had a 5% chance of surviving those times. Tell me about that.

He was given a 5% chance to survive both times in 2015 and 2017.

Yeah, right. He was poisoned twice.

'Yes, but it went. In 2015, it took his body about two days to completely collapse. He suffered from a multi-organ failure as a result of the poisoning. So basically, none of his major organs worked. His lungs, his heart, his kidneys, his stomach, everything just switched off, one after another. And by the time I got to Moscow, he was already in a coma. Which, you know, he was hooked on all these machines that worked for his major organs. And he looked like this huge octopus, with all the tubes coming out of him. His feet were blue, like your shirt. And. And his state, his condition was described to me as extremely unstable. Vladimir at that time, in 2015, he spent three weeks in the intensive care units, most of that time in a coma. And then three more weeks in the neurology department. Because when he came out of the coma, he talked gibberish and he could not stand, and he could not, he could not do anything. Honestly, he could not walk. He could not stand. I had to carry him around. And. And he was talking gibberish.

That must been so frightening.

Thinking back, yes, it was frightening. But in the moment, I could not afford being afraid. I had to be focused, and I had to have some control over the situation. The little control I had, I wanted to maintain it.

You brought him back. Back to the US.

Yeah. I got him back to the U.S. in the summer of 2015, and, it took him about a year to relearn how to walk and use a spoon. He had to wear this brace on his left leg because he, he he suffered from polyneuropathy from nerve damage following the posioning. So he he had no use of his left hand and left foot. And he used the cane for over a year to walk around. But he got back to normal, took his cane, and wobbled back to Moscow. And in December of 2015, he was already back in Moscow. And in 2017 another poisoning happened. But in 2017, his organs collapsed much faster. Because after up to the first poisoning, we tried and tried to have an investigation opened into and into this obvious assassination attack. And, the Russian prosecutor's office denied our requests and we desperately tried to find some answers as to what really happened, what had been done to him. And the, the tests conducted in a French laboratory showed showed extremely high levels of heavy metals in his blood. That was the only finding we have from that 2015 poisoning. And in 2017, when it happened again, it happened about two hours before Vladimir was supposed to leave for an airport. He was supposed to fly back to to us, to the US. And I think the idea was that he would collapse during that flight. And of course, flying over the ocean, the plane would not land anywhere and he'd just die. But the symptoms started slightly earlier. Two hours before he was supposed to leave for the airport. And we had him brought to the same team of medics that had treated him in 2015, and they knew what to do. They knew what they were dealing with already. So his organs collapsed in three hours. And yeah, I got on the plane right away and flew to Moscow. And again, when I arrived, he was already in a coma.

Was there any discussion between you, between these two poisonings, about him going back, or was there no question he was going back?

There was no question that he would go back. My only request was that he at least could stand and walk and. You know, I know who I married. I mean, the fact that I, that I didn't marry a politician does not mean that I didn't understand who I was marrying. He was the same guy with the same principles, with the same opinions, very strong opinion. And he is a very excruciating, you know, painfully honest person. So to him, calling on Russians to continue resisting the regime from a safe distance was unacceptable. He could not not share the challenges and the risks faced by Russians back home. To him, this idea that this is my country, this is my country, I have the right to be there and I have the right to demand a different government. I have the right to demand that human rights violators be brought to justice. I have this right as a Russian citizen. I will not run. I will not give in to intimidation. That idea is always very strong with Vladimir.

You know, we talked about your children a little earlier. They were quite young at that point. They're still young, I guess. Your oldest is 18 now. How did you, how did you both explain it to them and how did they process that? Seems so difficult, because you describe what a loving father he is. How do you explain to these young kids that daddy's going away for we don't know how long? And, you know, they must have some sense that there was some danger associated with it.

Well, the first time Vladimir was poisoned, our oldest daughter, who's now 18, was nine, and the second time he was poisoned, she was 11. And her siblings are younger. What I mean to say is that our kids have been living with it. But just like the war in Ukraine, that really began in 2014 with the annexation of Crimea, this personal hell has been going on for our family. We've been going through this personal hell since 2015 at least. I mean, the best way to understand how they are dealing with this and how they'll being able to process it is going to be by asking them in like 20 years. I can only see what is happening now. And I see that they're very strong, resilient kids and that they understand fully who their father is. But at the same time, they're kids, and they need needed daddy back. So these are two things. So we go in waves. You know, sometimes that that a feeling of, of being proud of the father outweighs the fears, the concern, the fears. And at other times, they're just falling in pieces because they just want their daddy to be there for Thanksgiving or for the graduation or for a competition of some kind. You know, I think our daughter, our oldest one was 11. I don't think it was after the first poisoning, but probably after the second poisoning. I remember she looked at him when he was already back home and doing much, much better, and we were sort of breathing out as a family a little bit. She looked up to him and she said, you know, daddy, you're not going to go to Moscow anymore. You're going to become a librarian. Yeah, that was funny. And I know that Vladimir loves this story and her humor. She was able to process that in, in this way and come up with something like this. But it also shows how very afraid for his life she is. And yeah. And she understands that he is someone amazing and that he's doing something important. But just like I say that I wouldn't mind to have a bit of boredom in my life, sometimes I think the kids think they would, they would rather their father was a librarian.

We're going to take a short break and we'll be right back with more of the Axe Files. And now back to the show. In April of 2022, a month or so after the Ukraine war broke out, he was going to set out for Russia again. You guys spent some a few days in Paris, I guess, before he, when you went back to the U.S. and he went to Moscow. At that time, did you have a sense that you might not see him again?

Well, Vladimir was in Moscow when the, the full scale invasion broke out. He was actually the one who woke me up by a text message in the middle of the night on the 24th of February, saying just two words. It started. I knew what he was talking about, obviously, so I didn't have to ask. We went to Paris because he participated in a hearing, in PACE hearing, hearing of the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe, on political prisoners in Russia. That was in very early April, I think it was April 3rd, April 2nd or April 3rd. And on April 4th he flew back to Moscow. And I returned to the U.S. to the kids. I don't know if I knew. I'd been sleeping with my phone since 2015, because I always am afraid that I might miss something important, that I might miss a call. So it's, saying that, I was more concerned about his safety with the launching of this full scale invasion. No, I cannot say that. I've been worried about his life for many years now. But I think. I don't know. I remembered that I tried to make our trip to Paris perfect. The time that we spent together. I dragged him to the museum of Rodin. Rodin, that, that French sculptor that I absolutely adore. And we, went on, on a, you know, Bateau Mouche on the Siene. And we, we just walked around Paris holding hands, and I wanted this to be a beautiful trip. I don't know. Thinking back, I don't know if I, in fact, felt something, that something was coming. Or if it just because we always miss each other whenever we are apart, we always miss each other. And whenever we get an opportunity to spend time together, this is always precious to us. So maybe it was just that. Me wanting some precious moments with Vladimir in the middle of that horror, because I remember when the full scale invasion started. I spent a few weeks in sort of a haze. I was absolutely devastated. Feeling shame and horrow and rage and everything combined. You know, all those feelings. And I just wanted to hold on to someone I love and wanted a few moments of peace with him. Maybe it was just that.

He went back. He was arrested for speaking out against the war. As you point out, ultimately sentenced to 25 years in prison. Now in Siberia in a punishment cell. Explain what that is.

'The first criminal case was opened against him in April of 2022 for spreading knowingly false information about the war in Ukraine. The second criminal case was opened during the summer months of 2022 for being affiliated with a so-called undesirable organization. He was also labeled a foreign agent, basically a spy. And in the, in the fall of 2022, around the time he was awarded the Human Rights Prize by the Council of Europe, a third criminal case was opened against him for high treason. The high treason case was based on three public speeches that he made: at the Parliamentary Assembly of the OSCE, at the Norwegian Helsinki Committee and at the US Congress. I believe he spoke about, about the growing number of political prisoners in the Russian Federation. Spoke about the need for the Russian population to have access to free and independent media. And he spoke about the illegitimate character of the 2020 referendum that basically destroyed the country's constitution and made Vladimir Putin into a tsar. According to the official indictment, these three speeches threaten the national security of the Russian Federation, and I quote, I mean, this is a quote from the official statement, official indictment, and damaged the image of the Russian Federation on the international stage. Now, later vladimir wrote in a in an oped for the Washington Post, that, although he was very flattered by this kind of attention from the Russian authorities, no one could ever damage the image of the Russian Federation on the international stage better than Vladimir Putin. But. So. Yes. One year, exactly one year after his detention, in April of 2023, he was sentenced to 25 years of strict regime. And in September 2023 he was moved to Omsk, about 3000km away from Moscow, in western Siberia, and he was placed in a punishment cell in a strict regime prison colony. Number six in Omsk, which is basically a prison within prison. It is a roughly six square meters. I don't know how many feet. It's a very small, cramped cell. Solitary cell, of course. Where the bed is attached to the wall from 5 a.m. to 9 p.m., where there is very little daylight, because there is only one very small barred window under the ceiling very high on the wall. He's allowed an hour and a half of reading and writing a day. So basically, when pen and paper are brought to him. And he's allowed an hour and a half of walking in circles in a small courtyard, also surrounded by walls. And he, Vladimir has been held in such conditions for over 270 days now. And I have to point out that according to the UN Nelson Mandela rules, keeping a person in solitary confinement for over 15 days is considered torture. Vladimir has spent over 270 days in such conditions.

His polyneuropathy has gotten worse, I read.

Well, it is no surprise, that it got worse. Because since the poisonings, vladimir had been leading quite a quite an active lifestyle. Doing exercises. And he was obviously obviously had access to physical therapy. So he was able to keep these symptoms under control. But since the imprisonment in solitary cell, his condition, and without access to proper medical care, let alone physical exercises or physical therapy, obviously his condition is deteriorating. But what I see from cases of political prisoners, all the cases of political prisoners, the regime seems to be using punishment cells as a way to make sure the state of health of people who already are suffering from some medical condition deteriorates faster. It seems like this is the way for the Russian authorities to make sure that these people die on their own.

We saw what happened to Alexei Navalny.

Well, what happened to Alexei Navalny, we still don't have any details. And I'm sure that one day we'll get those details. We'll understand what exactly happened to him. He was absolutely a murder. It was a murder. Whether it was done with premeditation with yet another poison, or because he was beaten up or something like this, or whether it happened because he had been placed in conditions incompatible with life. It's still a murder. It doesn't change the fact that it's still a murder. And, I believe that the regime is using this tactic of putting people in, in conditions incompatible with life in an increasing number of cases, making sure that these people basically die on their own.

I read somewhere that you were not a particularly public person, that you were not a public speaker, that you were not someone who. And it made me think of my own wife. We have a child who had a terrible illness. And my wife, who was very, very shy, started an organization to raise money for research. And over time, Susan began speaking to audiences of medical researchers, of 4,000 medical researchers. And it transformed her. It wasn't that she felt terribly comfortable doing it, but she felt she had to. You're traveling all over the world now carrying this case about the treatment of political prisoners in Russia. Tell me about that. Because it must be hard for you to be away from home as well.

Well, and thank you very much for sharing the story of your wife. I can send her my favorite quote by Eleanor Roosevelt, who's a bit of a role model of mine. She said that a woman is like a teabag. You can't tell how strong she is until you put her in hot water.

That.

'Life does that to us. People do amazing things out of love. And I believe this is about love. Every single time. This is about love. It is true that I do not enjoy the public part of this job, but I understand the importance of this job that I'm doing nowadays. It is unthinkable for me, and I didn't really even take a moment to decide whether I would speak out or not. The day, the moment I got news about Vladimir's detention, I knew what I needed to do, because I strongly believe that the best way I can help Vladimir now is by continuing his work. And Vladimir has been speaking out on behalf of political prisoners in Russia for many years. Listen, even before the full scale invasion of Ukraine, there were over 300 political prisoners in Russia. So this is not something you. And the fact that there is no rule of law and no justice system in Russia, again, is not new. Sergei Magnitsky was assassinated in a Moscow pretrial detention center in 2009. And back then, in 2009, it was already clear that we couldn't find justice in Russia. So, the work of speaking out against human rights violators, against the danger this regime poses to the entire world, could not stop with Vladimir's imprisonment. And I believe that the the best way I could help him is by by making sure that this, this work continued. And I now have the honor of working with an amazing group of people, the Free Russia Foundation. It's a civil society organization that brings together a big number of pro-democracy and anti-war initiatives working both inside and outside of the country. The Free Russia Foundation is this huge platform that encourages and supports all these initiatives, and they work to support political prisoners, is a big part of my work nowadays.

So I have to ask you to explain to people who may be listening to this podcast why your concerns, the concerns of the Russian people, should be their concerns wherever they live.

Because tyranny thrives in darkness, and because evil tends to spread. And we saw that with the Putin regime. It started with repressions against the Russian population and then it spread beyond the Russian borders. And the regime began attacking Georgia, Ukraine again, being involved in in the atrocities and in the war crimes committed in Syria. And we see how dictators of the world are coming together. They're obviously joining forces. We see that happening. Hamas is being welcomed in Moscow. And then Hamas attacks Israel. All these things are interconnected. Evil tends to spread. So human rights violations that are happening anywhere in the world should not be seen as an internal matter of any state. And I believe that this is what we need to remember, that this is not new. If we want democracy to survive, we need to stand with those who fight for democracies in those countries where people's rights are being oppressed. If we want this world to become a safer place, what is happening in Russia matters, and what is happening on that continent matters, because it's not just the war between Russia and Ukraine. This is war between a totalitarian state, between dictatorships and democracy. If Putin is victorious, it will mean that dictatorships win over democracies and then the evil will spread even further. And then at some point we will wake up and see this evil, those dictators, those regimes, whoever, those terrorist organizations, knocking on our door. And I think that it is quite clear.

Well, Evgenia, we will all be thinking of you and all those who are struggling so valiantly for human rights in Russia, political rights, and civil society in Russia. Your husband has been a great inspiration to me, continues to be a great inspiration to me. And you are as well. And, I know that your communication with him is limited now, but I know that he knows that you're out here as an advocate for him and others and the Russia that you and he have been fighting for. And, we just wish you the best of luck and think very much about you and your family.

Thank you very much, David. I'm often asked where I take my strength from, and of course, I take it from the kids, from Vladimir. But also from all of those people I have the honor of working with. And of course, I take my inspiration from hundreds and hundreds, 737 according to very conservative estimates by Memorial, 737 political prisoners in Russia. All these people who found the courage and the integrity to say no to the regime against all odds. I believe that the potential for a different Russia is there. And I believe that if the world shows support and solidarity with that part of Russian civil society, with those Russians, I believe that will be able to turn things around, and we'll be able to make sure that Russia one day becomes a country that respects the rights of its own citizens and lives in peace with its neighbors. And that is the only thing we want.

'In a country, we hope, where the voice of Vladimir Kara-Murza continues to be heard. And, that is very much on our minds as well. Thank you again. And, wishing you all the best in this mission moving forward and for your family. Thank you so much.

Thank you very much.

Thank you for listening to the Axe Files, brought to you by the Institute of Politics at the University of Chicago and CNN audio. The executive producer of the show is Miriam Finder Annenberg. The show is also produced by Saralena Berry, Jeff Fox, and Hannah Grace McDonald. And special thanks to our partners at CNN, including Steve Licktieg and Haley Thomas. For more programing from the IOP, visit politics dot uChicago dot edu.