This script has been lightly edited for clarity.

 

Jace Lacob: I’m Jace Lacob, and you’re listening to MASTERPIECE Studio.

For James Herriot, Season Four has been one of change, transformation, and self-discovery. Whether through difficult interactions with Wesley Binks, teachable moments with Richard Carmody, or supportive reassurances from his found family at Skeldale House, James has had to navigate his share of hardships, uncertainties, and life lessons. But his efforts are hardly wasted as we see him emerge from these moments more certain of himself, and his direction in life.  

 

CLIP

James: I’ve been thinking about what you said, and I’m starting to think that we should…carpe some diem.

Helen: Are you saying what I think you’re saying?

James: If you want to start a family—

Helen: You know I do.

James: Me too.

Helen: Well then—

James: Shall we—

Helen: Get cracking?

James: Well, I was trying to think of something a little more romantic.

 

But just as he’s finally gaining some traction, life throws James another curveball, this time in the form of a call up letter from the RAF.

 

CLIP

Siegfried: Are you all packed and ready?

James: Packed, but not ready. Not even remotely.

Siegfried: Sounds about right.

 

While James’ future is uncertain, for now he’s able to get a couple days of R&R at Skeldale House with his wife Helen, and newborn baby, James. 

 

CLIP

James: You alright?

Helen: I am now.

James: I love you so much.

Helen: I love you too.

 

This week, actor Nicholas Ralph joins the podcast to discuss James Herriot’s transformative arc over the course of Season Four, and how his character learned to grow by embracing the ever-present uncertainty of life. 

 

Jace Lacob: This week we are joined by All Creatures Great and Small star, Nicholas Ralph. Welcome.

Nicholas Ralph: Hi, Jace. Thank you very much. Thanks for having me.

Jace Lacob: Thanks for being here. So, Series 4 marks a period of transformation for All Creatures. The war is on, Tristan is gone, James and Helen are married and contemplating starting a family. Behind the scenes, there is a new head writer. I mean, did series four feel different in that respect? Was there a sense of transition that you were aware of as an actor?

Nicholas Ralph: Yeah, I suppose there definitely was a sense of transition in that we didn’t have Callum, our lead director Brian Percival had moved on, and our lead writer, as you say, yeah. So, there was and then there wasn’t, because then once we got all back up to the Dales and met up with Rach, Anna, and Sam, and the rest of the main cast, and our wonderful executive producer, Melissa Gallant, who really just steadied the ship for everyone.

And our lead writer as well, Jamie, had written before for the show, so wasn’t brand new either. So once we got back up there, and we kind of settled in and we bedded in, everything felt alright again, even though we missed those guys and we missed Callum.

Jace Lacob: You’ve now played James Herriot for four seasons and you said you instantly fell in love with the character from your first audition. All Creatures was your first on screen credit, which is a staggering thing, given how deftly you seem to inhabit the character as a lead actor. Has playing James Herriot taught you anything about yourself?

Nicholas Ralph: First of all, thanks very much. Very, very kind of you to say. Yeah, I, like the character, I’m just learning about myself all the time. I think where we have similarities is that James studied in Glasgow, his craft, veterinary practice, and then got his first big job in the Yorkshire Dales under Siegfried. And likewise, I studied my craft, acting, in Glasgow at the Royal Conservatoire of Scotland at Drama School. And then my first big job was in the Yorkshire Dales, doing this wonderful show.

So, I feel along with the character, I’m growing all the time personally and professionally. Like you say, this is my first television job, so as far as even that goes and that kind of muscle, because it’s very different to the theater that I had done before, I’ve now done four seasons of that, so I’m just all the time working on my craft, like James was.

This is what’s wonderful about the show as well, and playing a character like James, so three dimensional, so deep, so much truth, that there’s so much to get your teeth into every year. It’s why after four seasons, or certainly in the lead up to the fourth season, once again, I was just beside myself with excitement. I couldn’t wait to get started. Couldn’t wait to get back up there with everyone and get stuck into season four. There’s always new challenges ahead for me as an actor as well, playing James. So it’s all part of the joy of playing the character.

Jace Lacob: Speaking of getting back up there, has life in Grassington, which stands in for the fictional Darrowby, or Arncliffe, changed since you started filming there? Is the magic of television production just sort of old hat to the locals by now?

Nicholas Ralph: Along with the show, it seems to be growing all the time. We’re on these locations and we’ve bumped into couples and families over from America that were over off the back of watching the show. We’ve bumped into some families from Holland that were over. There was a lady from Ireland. There were people from Australia over.

It’s funny in Grassington as well, the crowds just get bigger every year and come down to watch filming, especially in Grassington, we do pull a big crowd. But there’s one lady and her dog, and it doesn’t matter what’s going on, what filming is happening, if people are being asked to be quiet or, would you mind holding there just for a moment while we film this. She just says no, no, and walks straight through with her dog. And she will not wait for a second, five seconds, but she just goes straight across, no, no, I’m not waiting, which is brilliant. I think fair play to her as well.

Jace Lacob: Fair play.

Nicholas Ralph: There’s a group of ladies as well, so Arncliffe is where the back of Skeldale House is. It’s a little village where time seems to have just stopped round about the 1930s. It needs so little to get dressed up. I love it out there, it’s one of my favorite locations. And these ladies come out about four o’clock in the afternoon for a gin and tonic. They all sit outside, and they always call over to me, Nick, come and join us for a gin and tonic. Alright, well, I would in a bit, I’ve still got a bit of work to do first, we’re still filming for a few more hours. So, I haven’t managed to get that gin and tonic yet, but soon I will, hopefully.

Jace Lacob: Looking back to the early episodes, James arriving in the Dales, wet behind the ears, to the end of Series Four, where James holds his son for the first time. What do you make of James’s arc overall from those very early days to the present?

Nicholas Ralph: Yeah, what a journey, what a rollercoaster. I think every year he’s just growing personally and professionally, filling out his vet’s coat a little more, to the point of having his firstborn son, which is just absolutely incredible. And I even remember at the start somebody saying, it might have actually been Jim and Rosie, Alf Wight, obviously the pen name for James Herriot’s actual, real children. They said, you’ve got the difficult job of playing our dad because he’s the observer, he’s the kind of neutral character, I think they said, in amongst these more eccentric characters, you could say, who perhaps wear their hearts on their sleeves a little more than James does.

However, I think that saying “the neutral character” it’s maybe not the right term because it’s been an absolute rollercoaster for James, you know? He’s been pulled from pillar to post, it’s been incredible. And as an actor, it’s been so much to get my teeth stuck into and he’s such a three dimensional character. So, I get to play these scenes of high drama and then I get to play scenes where he’s maybe a little bit more funny. And then these very emotional scenes and these really poignant moments and then working with the animals, which brings about its own set of challenges. It’s an absolute rollercoaster.

Jace Lacob: I do want to rewind just a little bit to the beginning of Series Four and to those early conversations between James and Helen about parenting. While James gets the wrong end of the stick with Wesley Binks, he seems convinced he’d be a bad father. What makes him feel this way, particularly? Why doesn’t he think he would be a good father, James?

Nicholas Ralph: I think it’s maybe a bit of a knee jerk reaction from James. And also, as we’ve seen with James throughout the seasons, it’s always been Helen that’s kind of nudging him along when he’s had these moments of doubt. And also, maybe it’s just lacking a bit of confidence in that area. And the way it panned out with Wesley at the start has kind of soured that as well. So he feels that he’s not cut out for it and he doesn’t have the skills for it. And, again, Helen’s there to nudge him back.

Jace Lacob: Push him along. She can push him along.

Nicholas Ralph: Yeah, push him along, and then to also kind of crush some of these doubts that he might have, which sometimes I think are a little unfounded or, they don’t hold as much weight perhaps as James thinks that they do, or feels that they do.

Jace Lacob: So, Skeldale House sees the arrival of some new faces in the series, such as James Anthony-Rose’s Carmody and Neve McIntosh’s Miss Harbottle. But I’m curious how the atmosphere on the set felt without Callum there. I imagine it was significantly quieter for one?

Nicholas Ralph: Yeah, it was. Tristan is a massive character in the show. And Callum is a massive character in our lives, onset and offset when we’re all up in Harrogate. There was a Tristan and Callum shaped hole in both those scenarios. But it just let us in more to what was happening in the world at the time, but also it shifted the dynamics in the house a little bit, which was quite interesting as well, because it meant the funny one, to use a kind of base term, was gone. So someone else has the opportunity to be the funny one who would have the funny thing to say.

And everyone in the house, the roles kind of shifted a little bit, and then Jamie comes in who did a wonderful job as Richard Carmody. I mean coming in on the fourth season with the cast so tight as we were, after a couple of days it felt like he’d been there the whole time which was just incredible. I’ve got to take my hat off to him, incredible job. And then in one scene, James says, as Siegfried and Carmody blast off in the rover and leave James behind, how did I become Tristan? So yeah, it was a bit of a shift. There was shifting happening at Skeldale house, which was really good as well, which was like a positive thing to come off the back of it. But yeah, we certainly missed Tristan and Callum.

Jace Lacob: And there is a beautiful sense of found family at Skeldale House, and this series reinforces that. Siegfried and Audrey function as surrogate parents for this very unruly brood. And James’s departure for training in episode five really hits that home, with Siegfried telling James how proud he is of him.

 

CLIP

James: You’ll look after Helen?

Mrs. Hall: Of course I will. Even when she doesn’t let me. Won’t be the same without you.

James: Well, just make sure it’s the same when I come home.

Mrs. Hall: Don’t let it change you.

James: I won’t.

Siegfried: I’m proud of you James. We all are.

 

Jace Lacob: What sort of emotions did that bus stop scene kick up?

Nicholas Ralph: Yeah, a funny point is something that Sam said, that now for Season Four, there was nobody in Skeldale house that was related anymore. It really was a surrogate family. Obviously, James and Helen are married, but. I mean, the bus stop scene and also the scene where we finish off the bottle of whiskey at two or three in the morning, both those scenes         I was just so happy that that made it in as well because that’s one of the scenes from the books that I had read and it’s about a page long in the books, and every time I read it, I could barely get through it by the end because, you’re almost welling up. It’s so simple, a page long, and it’s so powerful.

A lot is said, but a lot is left unsaid. There’s a lot of subtext as well, there’s a lot going on underneath. So that was just wonderful to play. And then the bus stop scene, it was just really poignant. And we were at the place where I always pick up and drop off my parents. And, this time around it was Siegfried and Mrs. Hall dropping me off to get the bus to go off and serve. And especially under the circumstances as well of just going off to war. And you don’t know if you’re going to see those people again. So again, not a lot written, but a lot going on underneath for the characters, which I think our show does particularly well and something that I really take pride in in our show about the subtext.

Jace Lacob: It helps that the actors are strong as well to deliver that. I’ll just say. And we get you reciting a little Robbie Burns here, “A Red, Red Rose”, as James says goodbye to the Dales, to his family, to his pregnant wife, not knowing, as you say, if he’ll see any of them ever again.

 

CLIP

James: Oh my love is like a red, red rose that’s newly sprung in June; oh my love is like the melody that’s sweetly played in tune. So fair art thou, my bonnie lass, so deep in love am I; And I will love thee still, my dear, till a’ the seas gang dry. Till a’ the seas gang dry, my dear, and the rocks melt wi’ the sun; I will love thee still, my dear, while the sands o’ life shall run. And fare thee weel, my only love! And fare thee weel awhile! And I will come again, my love, Though it were ten thousand mile.

 

Jace Lacob: And I love how this scene folds in, in a way, bookending the very first episode of the show with James seeing the Dales for the first time. What goes through James’s head here?

Nicholas Ralph: Yeah, first off, that poem is just incredible. I think there’s a lot going through James’s mind, one of which at the forefront is just remembering Helen and seeing Helen in that spot, because it’s right where the first time he ever saw her. And for James, I do think it was love at first sight. So, those kinds of feelings and emotions, and memories. I think that’s initially what he’s thinking about. And then after that, just thinking, my God, I have to get back. I have to get back to them. And the real reality setting in of, I’m leaving. This is where I’ve arrived, and as I sail past it, I’m actually leaving. So yeah, very complex emotions.

 

MIDROLL

 

Jace Lacob: The final scene between James and Helen is so touching and honest, and I love that James tells her that she’ll be a fantastic mom. And there is just such genuine emotion here, such love and fear and sadness and heartbreak all tied up in this one scene. How did you and Rachel walk that fine line between giving into your character’s emotions and brushing it away?

Nicholas Ralph: Yeah, it was a bit of a dance. We always knew it was going to be a really tricky scene to get through. Rach is just absolutely incredible, first off, I should say, because that was one take for her.

Jace Lacob: Wow.

Nicholas Ralph: But in those scenes, you’re kind of relying on the other or you put it onto that because you just have to feed off the other in that. You can’t not, especially with the performance Rach was giving. And I think for James, or the realization I came to, because even when I read the script for the first time when I read that scene, I was in floods of tears. I was truly upset. However, upon doing a bit more work and things, I was like, James, in that moment, has to be strong, I feel. He has to be strong for them, has to be strong for himself, has to be strong for Helen, because he’s leaving, Helen’s pregnant, she’s in Skeldale House, where she’s moved to be with him. So I think at that moment, as much as his heart is breaking, he has to be strong, and to leave her feeling a sense of, it might just be all right, you know? Yeah, I think he has to do that for her.

Jace Lacob: And then he leaves that model Spitfire that he carved for the baby. I mean, it’s, I can’t, it’s too emotional. Episode seven. So, you’re gone for episode six. We have an episode of All Creatures without James Herriot. We definitely feel that sense of someone missing. There’s a space where James should be, but he’s not there. Episode seven begins with James getting his wings and being tasked with repairing the broken wing of his bomber squad’s mascot, a kestrel named Georgie.

And James knew one of the men who died in the previous night’s flight, and Georgie’s injury is seen as a bad omen. The men are scared. How much of this weighs on James’s thoughts, the death of a man he knew, this wounded mascot, what’s what’s weighing on him here?

Nicholas Ralph: James has been away, probably about three months of basic training, two or three months at this point. So, along with the training and just getting you ready for whatever role you’re going to be given, the real realities of war and being around it and being around the men and hearing planes going off to fight and then not returning and things, it’s compounding all the time. You’re learning more about the war. You’re learning more about the casualties and now very real, in very real terms for James now, somebody that he knew, who had a young family like him, hasn’t returned. So, that’s just like a sledgehammer along with everything else. But that, I think, is a real punch in the gut.

And then he gets his wings and he knows he’s going to be flying bombers. We know now the stats, 51 percent of the bomber crews never returned. And I think another 25 percent were either injured. So, the stats aren’t great. The stakes are extremely high, and everything is becoming a lot more real.

Jace Lacob: So James asked Woodham for leave to see Helen as she can’t drive to see him, and Woodham denies the request. And he’s pretty cruel and dismissive.

 

CLIP

James: Excuse me, sir. There was something I wanted to ask you. My wife, she’s pregnant. I was due to meet her in the village for dinner this evening but she’s in no fit state to travel. I wondered if I could go back?

Woodham: Go back?

James: Just for an evening. I’m worried about her, and…

Woodham: We all have people we’re worried about, Herriot. But we have a job to do.

James: I appreciate that.

Woodham: No, I don’t think that you do! Otherwise, you wouldn’t be asking me. Or should I just let every man who gets a woman knocked up to run gallivanting across the country?

James: Well, I didn’t get anyone knocked up. Helen is my wife, she’s having our baby. I want to be there for her.

 

Jace Lacob: He also sees being present for the birth of a child is somewhat sentimental and unnecessary.

 

CLIP

James: Sir, I wouldn’t ask unless I was genuinely concerned. I want to be there and I want to support her.

Woodham: Where you need to be is in the air dropping bombs on your enemy. That is the support your family needs. You need to be strong. That is how you protect them. Is that understood?

James: Yes, sir.

 

Jace Lacob: Is this the classic struggle of masculinity to not give in to emotion?

Nicholas Ralph: Yeah, I guess. Certainly in his role anyway, looking over the new recruits and the people getting trained up, I suppose he has to harden himself. And he said himself as well, that he has two children. So, if he didn’t harden himself, he wouldn’t be able to carry out his duties. So, it’s a real tricky one. And James doesn’t like when he says, well, should I just let anybody who gets any girl knocked up, leave? I think he really takes umbrage to that, because that’s just absolutely so not the case. But yeah, like you say, I also know why he’s probably using that terminology as well, just to try and squash any sentiment, any emotion, and get the recruits focused on what they have to do. So, yeah, it was an interesting one.

Jace Lacob: James gets Georgie flying again, the men cheer as she takes flight. And it’s a small thing, but perhaps that’s what’s most needed in wartime, is small reminders or small miracles. And Woodham does drive him to Darrowby for two days leave. And James rushes through the streets of Darrowby, a Christmas miracle. Is this James’s It’s a Wonderful Life moment? Is he Jimmy Stewart here?

Nicholas Ralph: There’s definitely similarities. Yeah, for sure. And look, I love James Stewart. I love Jimmy Stewart. I love his films. So for me, if there’s anything that’s just got a little nod to James Stewart, I’m all for it. Yeah, he’s just overjoyed. Everything’s come together and it’s come right. And then he takes this brief second pause just to have a look around Darrowby, around the square very briefly, that I am actually here. And then the next thing is Helen, just beeline for Helen, just got to see Helen. And he’s just beside himself with excitement and happiness.

Jace Lacob: And then he gets to hold his son in his arms, which is the moment, as we said, that Michael Collins says changes something in you, changes everything, and it truly does. And he openly cries when he sees Jim, proving that he’s not Woodham or Michael Collins. How did you read this moment where James does choose not to harden his heart, but to follow Audrey’s advice and to open it?

Nicholas Ralph: Yeah, even before, when I met the little baby, I think she was 14 days old or something like that when she was first on set. And when I first held her, it was not my child, but at the same time, just holding a little baby of that age, just days old, it does do something to you. And, you know, I felt quite emotional just when I held her. And that was off set. It was a few days before or something like that, I can’t remember. But it is quite profound and quite emotional.

So, yeah when we were filming that scene, it was just very easy. You see James, he’s just so excited and beside himself that he’s back and he’s seen Helen that it doesn’t even register that she’s a good bit smaller in the stomach, you know? She’s still got a bump there, but she’s still a bit smaller. He doesn’t even register it right away, just wants to see Helen, just wants to be attached, embraced, entwined with Helen. And then kind of takes it in and goes, you’re in bed? What are you still doing in your bed? And then kind of recognizes that he’s not having to reach as much as he should to get his arms around her. And then meets his son.

Jace Lacob: And then he has to make a comment, of course, in true James fashion that he’s a funny looking thing, isn’t he? Because all the births he’d witnessed would have been those of animals and not humans. And is that how Alf Wight reacted to seeing Jim for the first time in reality? Was that sort of a true to life reaction?

Nicholas Ralph: That is true to life. That is what Alf Wight said. And he said it to Nurse Brown, I think she is in the book, so the midwife. In those days you would go to the Midwife’s house. So this is in her house, in Nurse Brown’s house. And men weren’t supposed to be there either. So he kind of crashes in and meets his son. And he says, a fun thing, isn’t he? And to the point where he says to the nurse, do you mind if I see another one? She said, what? Do you mind if I see another one? Just to make sure, because he’s quite funny looking. So he goes into the next room and it’s a lady from the town that he knows and he looks at her baby and he says, oh, she was even worse than little Jimmy so, I felt at ease after that. But that was true to life.

Jace Lacob: True to life. The final shot of James and Helen with the baby on the steps of Skeldale House in the snow, pure Christmas romance at its finest, their own little nativity. Is this moment the epitome of an All Creatures Great and Small Christmas special at its very best?

Nicholas Ralph: I think so. I mean, you’d have to ask the fans, but yes, it just had it all. Just the filming of it as well. I was going to say it was warm and it was beautiful. It literally was warm as well. It was about 30 degrees when we filmed that. It’s absolutely scorching.

Jace Lacob: Celsius.

Nicholas Ralph: Yeah, Celsius. But no, it was. It just felt so special and subsequently we’ve had a lot of lovely comments and letters as well from fans that have said as much and people that I’ve bumped into in the street and things like that. It was a special episode and a special way to finish it. So, it definitely brought the special to the All Creatures Great and Small Christmas special for sure.

Jace Lacob: So I follow you on Instagram and recent videos made me wonder if you were leaving behind the world of acting to make a go of pro skateboarding, which begs the question, is it difficult to ollie in Wellies?

Nicholas Ralph: Do you know, maybe I will take my skateboard up to Yorkshire and we’ll find out. But I don’t actually have my Wellies here. I don’t need them so much in the middle of London. Although I don’t know if production would like that, if I took my skateboard up actually. If any of them follow me on Instagram, they were probably shirking away from the screen at the thought of me on a skateboard, maybe injuring myself.

Jace Lacob: Insurance issues, insurance issues.

Nicholas Ralph: Yeah, yeah exactly. I dusted off the skateboard after a long time, but it was good fun.

Jace Lacob: Nicholas Ralph, thank you so very much.

Nicholas Ralph: Thanks, Jace. Thanks for having me, cheers.

 

Next time, while the Dales have been spared the frontlines of World War II, ripples of the war can still be felt in daily life, and, of all places, in the kitchen.

 

CLIP

Siegfried: Oh, what a treat! Thank you Mrs. Hall.

Mrs. Hall: Well, I’ve had to make some substitutions on account of the rationing.

Helen: Oh they look lovely.

Mrs. Hall: Well?

Helen: These are interesting flavors. I’ve not had one like this before.

Mrs. Hall: Dear me! They taste like—

Helen: Dog biscuits.

 

All Creatures Great and Small historical advisor Mark Roodhouse joins us to discuss food rations and black markets in Britain during the Second World War.