David Thackeray, the intimacy coordinator for Sex Education season 4 and both seasons of Heartstopper, knows you probably have a lot of questions about his line of work.
He’s been tasked with choreographing the pulse-pounding — and inevitably awkward — moments of sexual exploration that you see onscreen. Both Netflix shows have, in recent years, revolutionized television’s depiction of young intimacy; it’s a responsibility that Thackeray, who began his career as an actor in the United Kingdom, does not take lightly.
“For me, there were a handful of times where I had intimate scenes or nudity, especially for stage, and it wasn’t dealt with properly,” Thackeray tells Teen Vogue on a recent video call from his home office in London. “I remember thinking, Wow, there’s a lot of people in this rehearsal room. Oh, it’s not a closed rehearsal like they said it was going to be. Oh, the windows are wide open. This is not fun at all. I think you should have a bit of an understanding of an actor’s process and what they’re going through when it comes to intimate scenes. I can offer different approaches and at the same time know what the directors need for their vision.”
In a wide-ranging interview, Thackeray — who has also worked as an intimacy coordinator on The White Lotus, It’s a Sin, Industry, Foundation, and The Crown — breaks down the key intimate moments from Heartstopper season 2 and the last three seasons of Sex Education, and offers greater insight into one of the most important jobs to gain traction after the rise of the #MeToo movement. (Warning: Spoilers ahead!)
Teen Vogue: In 2016, you learned about Ita O’Brien, one of the pioneers of intimacy coordinator in the industry, and you began training for the role shortly thereafter. What kind of training does that entail?
David Thackeray: Actually, I was taught by Ita O’Brien at drama school briefly, and then I was invited to help with the research and development of the intimacy coordinating role. I was there from the beginning [when] no one really knew what was going on, what was happening, or what the process was. I know the States were a little bit more ahead, but we were just trying to figure it out.
It was a core group of establishing intimacy coordinating — Miriam Lucia, Elle McAlpine, Kat Hardman — so my training very much was workshop after workshop and in choreography. I was coming in as a director more so than as an actor, but I did the process of training as an actor and director, so I understand how it works both ways. And then suddenly, I was put on set and one of my first scenes was an orgy [laughs], so it was a lot.
TV: You were thrown straight into the deep end! Were you always someone who felt comfortable talking about intimacy and sex, or is that a kind of competence that you’ve been able to develop overtime?
DT: I think going to drama school definitely gave me confidence in understanding bodies and space and taking away any kind of anxiety when it comes to that. But I think after you learn the process and you’ve workshopped it, it just becomes quite technical. Once you’ve done five or six years of this job, you have to remind yourself that not everybody is open to talking about intimacy and sex, and it’s about going, “Okay, let’s go from the beginning, the baseline.” Of course, there’s still elements of it where I still laugh and I still go, “Oh wow, that’s a lot!” But I think as soon as you start stripping it all down to the choreography and what the artists are going to be wearing, who’s going to be on set, it’s not sexy in any way. It takes that mystery all away, really.
TV: Given that intimacy coordinators are still a relatively new addition to professional sets, what do you think are some of the biggest misconceptions about your job?
DT: I think there’s a few. There used to be a lot more when we first started, but [some people] are like, “Oh, they’re sort of the ‘fun police,’ or they’re just going to get in the way, or they’re just there for an insurance policy.” People are not realizing that we’ve got a whole toolkit — and I don’t mean a physical toolkit, but there’s a whole process where we can make the director’s vision come even more to life. We’re not here to get in between anyone or anything. And not all intimacy coordinators carry this magic/nudity garment bag. There’s a lot of us who collaborate with costume [designers], and there’s not just one process.
TV: What does your day-to-day work on a professional set look like? Can you give me a typical example of the scope of your responsibilities?
DT: I come away from set feeling exhausted because of the amount of nerves or the way you are having to hold a space, not necessarily just for the cast, but also for the crew. There’s a level of respect and a level of listening to [understand] how the room is feeling.
You’re there on the day, you are checking in with the actors before they go on set, you’re making sure they’ve got all the nudity garments in place. You might have to choreograph and rehearse that scene that day, so you’ve got to work that with the director and the artists. You’ve got to close down the set with the first AD [assistant director] and make sure there’s a few monitors on that need to be on, and whoever needs to be there is there, but it’s a closed set.
And when you’re shooting the scene, you’re very much looking for the details, you’re looking for how you can help the director’s vision, and also making sure the actors feel comfortable during it. Some sex scenes can take a bit of time as well.
TV: People in the industry often talk about how intimate scenes should be telling a story and be considered in the same way you would choreograph a dance or fight scene.
DT: If an intimate scene or nudity happens, we’re like, “What does this do? How does this help the character’s journey? How does this move this story forward?” That’s the question I have for the actors as well. And then after talking to the director and hearing their vision, we’d go into even more detail: “What’s the quality of touch? What’s the position or the extra details that are going to help move this even further?”
TV: Can you give me an example of when an intimate scene from Heartstopper or Sex Education helped reveal character development?
DT: Heartstopper is literally about intimacy. The whole thing is about relationships. That’s the core of it. So each touch, each kiss, really does push the story forward in that relationship. If you talk about [Kit Connor’s] Nick and [Joe Locke’s] Charlie in the first season, you’ve got the hovering of the hand on the sofa, and that’s not something that an intimacy coordinator would necessarily be there for. But for Heartstopper, they were like, “Yeah, that’d be great if you could talk about the quality of that and find the stillness of what that means for that character.” It’s huge because [those moments show] discovery and exploration. And for Sex Education, there’s so many [laughs], because each one has a purpose, a story, and a lesson to it.
TV: One thing I found striking about the second season of Heartstopper was how the show captures the little moments and early stages of Charlie and Nick falling in love. They can’t keep their hands off each other and want to spend as much time as possible together, especially when the other person is not feeling well. How did you want to depict a different kind of intimacy — and challenge traditional depictions of queer intimacy — with those characters this season?
DT: That is a huge question! I don’t even know where to start. [Laughs.] [It starts with] those early conversations with [director] Euros [Lyn], [creator] Alice [Oseman], Kit and Joe. Euros, Kit, and Joe would find a nice arc of these characters’ journeys, and I would literally step in and be like, “Right, this is the intimate moment.” And the question is, “Whereabouts are we within both of their journeys?”
A clear one would be kissing out in the street outside of a parent’s house or a kiss in front of their friends, which is their safe space. “What does that look like? Who’s in charge of this moment of intimacy, or are they coming together? Who puts their hand first?” That’s where I would say it goes.
TV: Euros and executive producer Patrick Walters both told me that you would try to make each of Nick and Charlie’s kisses feel different, which is certainly no easy feat. Is it true that you guys had to film the opening kissing montage at different points during the shoot?
DT: Good question. I don’t think we did any reshoots. I think we maybe split [the kisses] up on a few days, but it would be very much like, “We need to find a different quality for this, or a different way of showing these moments,” because otherwise you as an audience member would be like, “This is boring. This is just another kiss. What is this?”
So it would be very much like, “Okay, they’re doing some homework together, and then suddenly who makes that first move? Is it a playful moment of kissing? You have a moment on the bed — is this more heated? Is it more open-mouthed? Is it a longer kiss? Is it a playful fight kind of thing? Is it a kiss on the head?” It is always trying to find different ways of telling that story; it is basically showing a whole relationship in two minutes. It’s a lot!
TV: Later in the season, Nick gives Charlie a hickey when they’re given a rare moment of privacy in their hotel room in Paris. It’s one of the most notable moments in Alice’s comics and certainly a scene that fans were looking forward to seeing come to life this season. How did you block that scene?
DT: Of course, for me, the whole thing was, how can we make that motion believable so that we’re not questioning, “What’s he doing there? What’s happening there? Is he just snuggling into the neck? Is there a motion that we need to find?” It is a little bit more technical, like, “Okay, maybe if you just move the head a little bit in this shot or [add] a little bit of tension…” But what sells [that moment] as well is Charlie’s reaction to the hickey, especially the reaction in the mirror of seeing it. And then, Tao’s [William Gao] reaction is just the best.
TV: Speaking of Tao, I know the logistics of shooting his first kiss with Elle (Yasmin Finney) weren’t ideal because you had to shoot in the Louvre with a skeleton crew, but you managed to block that scene ahead of time in a rehearsal. It was also Will and Yas’ first on-screen kiss, so it carried a level of personal significance to everyone involved.
DT: Alice showed me little drawings of [that moment], which was unbelievably helpful as an intimacy coordinator. I went out to Paris and it was a silly mistake putting that on Instagram because suddenly everybody knew what scene was happening. Bad form on David! [Laughs.]
I worked with both of them and we marked it through the same agreement of consent and touch — marking through where they’re happy to be touched, but more importantly where they’re not. We even [thought about] the moment of them running into [that scene] and sitting down in front of the window. We thought about the way we have this push and pull of someone leaving and then someone else running after them, and then the turn. It’s about going over it more than once so that it is in their bodies and they can really play with it and find it. [We even considered] the quality of that kiss in that moment, because there’s three kisses in the Louvre. It was fantastic to be able to do that in that much detail.
TV: Whose decision was it for you to play the French teacher this season?
DT: Oh, no one’s asked me that before! [Laughs.] I was in the office with [producer] Zorana [Piggott], Alice, Euros and Patrick, and they were like, “Oh, do you want a cameo? Do you want to be the French teacher?” And I went, “Look, of course, but I know not a single word of French.” [Laughs.] It was so kind of them to ask, and I was so nervous as well. It’s been a while since I did a bit of acting. It was really nerve-wracking because everyone was there, all of the actors were looking [at me] and having a laugh, but it was good fun. It was actually my birthday that day as well, so it was really sweet.
TV: Have you been thinking about dipping your toe back into working in front of the camera?
DT: Yeah, I’ll always say yes to acting. That’s where I started, but I’m actually doing a little bit of a sidestep into directing. I’m very fortunate to be directing a short film, and then I’m actually working on a pilot for a new TV series and directing that, so it’s nice to be able to use those tools again as well.
TV: Sex Education has always been lauded for its frank but sensitive depictions of teen sexuality, and the first time that Otis (Asa Butterfield) and Maeve (Emma Mackey) have sex in the final season is as much a celebration of their love as it is a goodbye. What kinds of conversations did you all have about that scene? It really feels like the culmination of four years worth of work for all of you.
DT: Yeah, the pressure was huge. It felt huge anyway, because you want to make this moment right for the characters. There were lots of conversations with both Emma and Asa and the usual questions I would ask about nudity, like, “What are you comfortable with? What positions are we thinking about here?” I think on the day when we rehearsed it, we spoke about the quality of touch, taking items of clothing off, and who’s in lead at what point of the intimacy.
That moment of Otis picking up Maeve and then going down to the bed is great because you suddenly see the confidence of this character that he’s been wanting to have and be like for many, many seasons, and the support from Maeve is great. [We discussed] the moment of simulated sex and the quality of that. It’s not just sex. It’s a relationship. It’s [showing the] trust and connection in the way they look at each other as well.
TV: The final season of Sex Education introduces three new romantic pairings — Aimee (Aimee Lou Wood) and Isaac (George Robinson), Cal (Dua Saleh) and Aisha (Alexandra James), and Abbi (Anthony Lexa) and Roman (Felix Mufti) — and I have to assume that you wanted to find new ways to show the progression of those relationships, since they’re unlike many that we’ve ever seen before.
DT: There were some new moments, and I was actually really blessed to have a bit of a team this season, so I actually had other intimacy coordinators, including Josh Okpala and Kat Hardman, working on different moments.
There was Tigger Blaize who worked a lot with Roman and Abbi. I worked on one scene with them, and they’re great and so much fun. I did the flashback of them in bed, and it’s Abbi masturbating, and Roman’s like, “What are you doing?!” I love those kinds of scenes. It’s very, very Sex Education to me, and Tigger helped out with many, many more of their scenes.
Another relationship, which I thought was very Sex Education, was Michael and Gloria — I think those scenes are just brilliant. I helped set it up, and I had Robbie Taylor Hunt, another intimacy coordinator, going in for the day and working with them. I watched it recently, and I was like, “Wow, that’s just really funny and great, but also super important.”
TV: I’m still struck by the scene in season 3 when Maeve and Isaac are intimate and ask where the other person likes to be touched, and then you have a scene in the series finale where Aimee and Isaac are asking each other many of the same questions.
DT: We wanted to make sure this was different this time around, because it’s a completely different relationship, and the character Aimee has gone through a lot [after being sexually assaulted in season 2], so to have that kind of trust and that intimacy is a really crucial moment for her.
TV: Intimacy can take many forms on-screen but more often than not it’s quick and suggestive, so it’s almost more remarkable when a show or film takes the time to give one of those scenes the time to breathe. What are your thoughts about how sex is currently portrayed on-screen, and how do you think audiences are responding to these depictions of physical and emotional intimacy?
DT: I think there’s been a massive shift in the way of the audience going, “Well, that scene had a reason.” And the feeling they get when they go, “I’m not sure about this [intimate scene],” is because usually it didn’t have a reason to be there in the first place. If it’s gone on for way too long, we’re like, “Well, what are we trying to do here?” So I think there’s been a massive shift in a way of like, “Okay, that scene makes sense. Oh, an intimacy coordinator worked on that.” That then makes them feel comfortable [as a viewer], knowing that the artists are comfortable and there’s been agreements of consent.
TV: You seem pretty attuned to the fandoms of the shows you work on, so you may be aware of the conversations that fans and critics alike have been having about the lack of sex in Heartstopper, even though that show offers healthy depictions of teen relationships. What have you made of that discourse?
DT: I haven’t seen that come up, actually. I’ve always seen it as, “Oh, I don’t know if [having sex] is right for the relationships that we’ve seen so far in Seasons 1 and 2. Are they really there yet?” It is not for me to say whether they are or not, but that’s really interesting. I might do a bit of digging about that. [Laughs.]
TV: Some intimacy coordinators have said that there’s a lot of cheating and masking on camera so that the scenes look really good, but the actors are obviously not engaging in the physical act beyond kissing. Have you used any barriers or different kinds of padding on either show?
DT: Yeah, of course. If you see a simulated sex scene, especially on Sex Education, there’s a pillow in between both artists. You can also get garments where there’s actually a silicon barrier inside there as well, so you feel like you’re super supported, and it’s actually quite amazing what you can get now and do. You also anchor positions, so if you were doing a simulated sex scene, there are some positions where only your hip is touching or maybe only your thigh is touching the inner hamstring of someone else. You can make a gap between your groins [using those positions], so it’s all about camera angles and making it believable as best as you can.