Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Crime and Criminal Biography

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Writing better crime-related articles

While assessing numerous crime-related articles, I have found myself repeatedly referring to certain guidelines and saying the same sorts of things time and time again. Editors seem to be insufficiently aware of these specific issues when writing about crime-related topics. The general advice about contributing to Wikipedia that is offered at Wikipedia:Writing better articles is quite general. It does not highlight issues related to specific topics. Also, there are other more specialized essays about writing about specific topics, such as:

Wikipedia:Writing about breeds
Wikipedia:Writing about cannabis,
Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Writing about fiction,
Wikipedia:Writing about women,
Are there other essays or guidelines about writing articles about specific topics that I have missed?

I see this essay about writing better crime-related atricles as being something different from a style guide or part of the Manual of Style for Crime-related articles. The essay would set out the basic issues that editors might encounter when writing about crime-related topics and provide advice and considerations that editors should take into account. - Cameron Dewe (talk) 00:03, 9 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Cameron Dewe This seems like a good idea, I have no opposition. I can't think of any suggestions for it off the top of my head, though. PARAKANYAA (talk) 14:03, 14 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Cameron Dewe I agree that something like this (or even a style guide) is sorely needed. It's a little alarming how widespread the lack of editorial standards for crime-related articles are and a bit surprising that a style guide doesn't already exist. The Professional Wrestling style guide is one that's pretty good and is also about a topic area that requires a lot of editorial guidance: Wikipedia:WikiProject Professional wrestling/Style guide. BoldGnome (talk) 04:21, 7 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@PARAKANYAA and BoldGnome: Thanks for your feedback. I have started drafting an essay in my sandbox. Some of the advice is pretty general. While other advice is specific about crime related articles, such as writing articles about crimes in the past tense because these are historic events. I would welcome comments and further specific ideas. - Cameron Dewe (talk) 04:50, 7 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your work on this, it looks great so far! I wonder if there would be more value in centralising it to the Project Page and perhaps making it specifically a style guide? Essays are easily dismissed by stubborn editors whereas a style guide can be more easily relied on as the consensus of editors involved in the project, and can be more easily changed to reflect evolving consensus. (Plus it would lighten the burden on you.) Totally understand if that's not what you intend for this piece of work. BoldGnome (talk) 07:07, 7 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

My initial thoughts were to draft something in my sandbox before moving it to an essay. But your suggestion of a style guide makes sense for some of the content that is specifically crime related. There is other content, about the 5 W questions, that is more content orientated that would probably make sense to be in a stand alone essay as it is good advice about writing articles generally. - Thanks for the feedback. - Cameron Dewe (talk) 07:56, 7 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Cameron Dewe One specific issue that always tends to cause a lot of controversy is when exactly a perpetrator of a high profile crime warrants a separate article from the main crime article - it's often accepted, but usually as a sub-article from the main one, and even then. There was an essay that gave guidance along these lines, but IIRC that essay gave backwards guidance from how it was usually handled (it advised making an article on the perpetrator first, and not an event one - though that basically is how we deal with non modern serial killers). I have some thoughts on this myself but I definitely feel as if it's an issue that a crime style guide would need to handle.

Our handling of this area is kind of a mess, especially with serial vs mass murderers (who we treat very differently page-structure wise in most cases). Guidelines are sort of unwritten here in this respect. And we don't have any clear cut guidance on how to treat aspects of crime perpetrators in articles, except for the broad BLP guidance which obviously applies to crime in the "be careful about naming people" thing. This has to do with WP:BIO1E and WP:BLP1E - however, these guidelines explicitly notes "if media coverage of both the event and the individual's role grow larger, separate articles may become justified" and "if the event is highly significant, and the individual's role within it is a large one" then an article may be warranted (which everyone ignores) so where do we draw the line?

I think it should probably be noted that in any case, splits of that nature shouldn't be done unless it would improve the original and split pages, which is something no one seems to understand so we have people trying to make half baked split articles for notorious murderers even when it covers no new ground. Someone actually went and wrote a decent (but kind of overdetailed) article for Elliot Rodger that did cover what the main page didn't recently, after years and years of people saying he should have an article but not actually writing one. Content split is useless without the content after all.

Anyway I'll try to think of more things to cover. PARAKANYAA (talk) 05:05, 8 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@PARAKANYAA: Yes, I was involved in the debate about the Elliot Rodger article, as well as other proposals by the same editor for other proposed biographies where WP:BIO1E and WP:BLP1E were involved. There is also WP:CRIMINAL and WP:BLPCRIME which, I think, over-rides the other policies, too. I will go back over some arguments on these topics to see what has been put forward and accepted. - Cameron Dewe (talk) 05:27, 8 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

An additional thought I've had is that many crime-related articles are written in a way where it tries to tells a dramatic 'true crime' story which describes each 'twist' and 'turn' in the events they describe, likely as a result of the sources relied upon for those articles. I know you've referred to Writing Better Articles, but I'd suggest borrowing heavily from WP:Encyclopedic style. BoldGnome (talk) 08:25, 11 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@BoldGnome: I have also found that being ENCYCLOPEDIC means that Wikipedia is not everything. Also, Wikipedia is not a news website, nor is it a memorial website. I also recently came across an opinion piece by a journalist who was asking why there were murders missing from Wikipedia, and pointing out that some of these articles about brutal murders were actually being deleted, basically because nobody was writing news stories about them. I will need to find it again. This started me thinking about media bias when reporting crime, as "If it bleeds, it leads." - which means newspapers will tend to report sensational or spectacular violent crimes, yet ignore mundane crime that makes up the majority of crime that is committed. I also came across some comments I made about the (mis-)use of crime statistics back in 2021. - Cameron Dewe (talk) 09:46, 11 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Found this opinion piece: Thomas, Sean (31 July 2013) "The murder of Stephen Lawrence and the strange case of the missing Wikipedia entries", The Telegraph. - I think this is an interesting observation about crime articles on Wikipedia. - Cameron Dewe (talk) 10:05, 11 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Having been distracted for the past month with replacing the British crime banner, I am now starting to think about this again. The idea of a style guide is starting to appeal to me more and more. There are a number of style issues I have come across recently that suggest further guidance may be needed for various issues specific to crime related articles that are already covered by existing guidelines.

One example is use of the somewhat vague label "criminal" being used in relation to biographies of people who are convicted of a serious crime, or crimes, of a particular type for which there is a much more precise term that could be used instead. Often the "criminal" label is not supported by any sources, while the other term(s) are often well supported by sources. - Cameron Dewe (talk) 11:20, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move at Talk:2024 shooting at a Donald Trump rally#Requested move 13 July 2024

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:2024 shooting at a Donald Trump rally#Requested move 13 July 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. RodRabelo7 (talk) 23:13, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move at Talk:University of Texas at Austin stabbing#Requested move 14 July 2024

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:University of Texas at Austin stabbing#Requested move 14 July 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. 98𝚃𝙸𝙶𝙴𝚁𝙸𝚄𝚂 • [𝚃𝙰𝙻𝙺] 22:42, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move at Talk:Michael Jackson sexual abuse allegations#Requested move 15 July 2024

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Michael Jackson sexual abuse allegations#Requested move 15 July 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. RodRabelo7 (talk) 16:06, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move at Talk:Binghamton shooting#Requested move 16 July 2024

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Binghamton shooting#Requested move 16 July 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. RodRabelo7 (talk) 16:11, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

War crimes in the Russian invasion of Ukraine has an RfC

War crimes in the Russian invasion of Ukraine has an RfC for possible consensus. A discussion is taking place. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments on the discussion page. Thank you. JDiala (talk) 21:30, 24 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move at Talk:Kaspersky bans and allegations of Russian government ties#Requested move 23 July 2024

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Kaspersky bans and allegations of Russian government ties#Requested move 23 July 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. RodRabelo7 (talk) 01:34, 30 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Good article reassessment for Cerro Maravilla murders

Cerro Maravilla murders has been nominated for a good article reassessment. If you are interested in the discussion, please participate by adding your comments to the reassessment page. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status may be removed from the article. Spinixster (trout me!) 08:56, 4 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Lucy Letby has an RfC

Lucy Letby, which is within the scope of this WikiProject, has an RfC for possible consensus. A discussion is taking place. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments on the discussion page. Thank you. NebY (talk) 17:19, 5 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]