"When it comes to matters of religion and spirit, we no longer have the luxury to simply believe what we are told to believe and do what we are told to do"
Well, yes, but only very few people are capeable of discernment. That's why people have been compared to sheep who need a shepherd. Priests are those shepherds.
Now there is a terrible lack of "priests". I do not use the term "priest" to simply refere to someone how was ordained, but merely to describe people who are able of discernment and help others to find their way to truth.
@Karl - "only very few people are capable of discernment."
I don't know - because many of them will not even try to discern for themselves.
For instance because they regard it as sinful (e.g. 'prideful' or disobedient).
A lot of this is perhaps unconsciousness of how much people already discern for themselves (e.g. in choosing a church, in choosing who/ what instruction to follow from within that church etc).
This is why it is Now necessary consciously and explicitly to engage in personal discernment - rather than trying to deny or avoid it.
Only when people are consciously and conscientiously Trying to discern, would we see how many people Really *cannot* do it.
This is just Donatist 2.0. In the fourth and fifth centuries, the pre-schism Church had to address the validity of sacraments administered by clergy who denied the faith under Diocletian's and subsequent persecutions. This is the same thing with different trappings. The Church always grappled with worldliness, for as Our Blessed Lord said, "the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak." Yes, leaders sometimes don't lead, lead poorly, or lead in the wrong direction, but as Saint Peter said, "Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life."
No it is not. Read the arguments. Think about them.
14 June 2021 at 15:48
ben said...
"...denied the faith under Diocletian's and subsequent persecutions."
The churches closed themselves like nearly everything else did because everything is part of the same system, the leaders of institutions are all the same people. The church leaders are roughly analogous to Diocletian, not persecuted by someone like him.
@ben - "the leaders of institutions are all the same people"
Yes, to an astonishing extent. And the system is global - for the first time ever. This is one of many reason why analogies with past civilizations/ empires are only very partial - and mostly misleading.
14 June 2021 at 16:48
Pop Piano said...
"Yes, to an astonishing extent. And the system is global - for the first time ever. This is one of many reason why analogies with past civilizations/ empires are only very partial - and mostly misleading."
For the first time ever of course because there could not possibly have been a global anything in the past for this to be the second time around, third time around. It is the first and final globalism because once insantiated there is no redoubt no geographical square mile on he globe not under its control. Eventually it will be illegal to disagree with LGBT even in international waters and the Mauritania desert. This of course leads to an acedia never seen on this earth. c.f. all he young men on welfare who don't have the energy to even try and create a family or do anything but laze on the couch and play video games.
Donatism 2.0? You mean, denying the validity and salvific value of the Sacraments? Are you sure that the Donatists are not those who CLOSED the Churches, saying "Public Health is more important than Sacraments, which are unessential", but rather those who point out that closing Churches is a HUGE deal?
I'm an Orthodox, a recent convert from Catholicism. Though the response of my parish was not ideal in my opinion, it wasn't awful either. For all its warts, it never denied the Sacraments to it's parishioners. For me, that's the bare minimum.
But for those who ARE in a parish that closed down entirely, I believe the right thing to do is to get the Sacraments from your parish now they're again available, but in the spirit of someone who's entering enemy territory to snatch a great treasure. Whatever you do, stop supporting it financially, yes, even with the small collection box donations. Clearly state why if asked.
14 June 2021 at 18:41
Jon said...
Aren't we forgetting that in many countries churches were just not allowed by the government to hold masses & other sacraments?
14 June 2021 at 21:25
captOBV said...
Protestants don't have to worry aboug Donayism because the validity of the sacraments is not tied to the validity of a priesthood. The father can administer communion at home to his family if need be.
14 June 2021 at 21:44
Joel said...
I visited a friend's SSPX parish a few months ago. They never closed or masked (despite the state laws in effect). It was clear that they took their sacraments seriously, and continue to do so. At least here in the US, it is not at all odd to find churches (of various denominations) like this, and might even be the rule in more conservative locations.
What to draw from this, I don't know, I present it as a data point.
14 June 2021 at 22:43
Evan Pangburn said...
@Jonny McGee - One major difference, is that I'd imagine those devout Christian souls who gave way to the persecutions of Diocletian were repentant.
I'll go a step further and say they were probably penitent for the rest of their lives, haunted even.
As opposed to the current situation with the RCC, no repentance, or even much in the way of mere regret. Sometimes they even seem to celebrate their submission to secular anti-Christian authorities. They are, at the very least, convinced they did "the right thing".
@Joel - The successful defiance of individual churches of minority denominations only goes to emphasize the failure of the large and majority churches.
But we must not be sidetracked into materialism. The defiance must be spiritual primarily. Churches may be physically compelled, but they should never endorse evil in their hearts.
What the churches actually have done is publicly, and officially, to celebrate their own enslavement to the evil worldly powers; and to encourage others happily to submit to this evil.
Yes. Those Churches who were actually compelled to close down should have made it clear that THIS is what's going on, and that these secular rulers are no different from Communists, the Atheists of the French Revolution, and the persecuting Roman Emperors. Mention that not even the Ottoman Sultan closed down the Churches, for good measure. Make it CLEAR to their faithful that the only reason they have shut down is because of evil secular authorities. Make it clear whose side they are on.
Problem is, they DID make it clear whose side they were on, and it's the wrong side.
15 June 2021 at 15:03
captOBV said...
What I meant is the Protestant has recourse to the sacraments still even after the pastors have abdicated; the Catholic due to his theory that only the now apostate hierarchy can administer the sacraments, does not.
15 June 2021 at 21:57
Francis Berger has followed-up last-week's powerful post about the Roman Catholic Church (which I discussed here), with another concerning the vital importance of spiritual discernment in a time when things have come to a point. Here are some excepts:My overarching point was that the bishop and the [Roman Catholic] Church remain officially aligned with the birdemic narrative. As such, they continue to believe their decision to close churches and deny Mass to hundreds of millions was totally justified. Put another way, the Catholic Church - and practically all other Christian denominations - remain firmly convinced that they did the right thing for the right reasons. They feel no need to reflect upon or perhaps reassess their decision, and they certainly do not think they have anything to repent. I happen to think the opposite.
I hold the opposite view because I am convinced that the birdemic is an Evil Lie. Moreover, I believe in the primacy of the spiritual - in putting God and spiritual considerations first. By denying Mass and other sacraments such as last rites at the behest of the secular global diktat of none are safe until all are safe, the Catholic Church (and other Christian denominations) essentially demonstrated that they believe in the primacy of the material - in putting the world and material considerations first. ...At its core, the birdemic is not about science or medicine or church doctrine. At its core, the birdemic marks the epicenter of things coming to a point. More specifically, the birdemic is about being able to spiritually discern good and evil and making the right choices in light of this discernment. ...As far as I'm concerned, churches the world over failed miserably when they closed their doors due to the birdemic. I will go even as far as to say most churches actively and willingly made the wrong choice. And churchgoers who passively and obediently follow their churches in this regard are also making the wrong choice. People can reject this as my "opinion", but I do not regard my standpoint on this issue to be mere opinion. For me, it's discernment - discernment based on my understanding of God and Creation - that is, on my understanding of the fundamental nature of reality and of our current spiritual war. ...The line separating good from evil has rarely, if ever, been clearer. That doesn't mean that discernment is always easy or that our judgments are always correct, but it does mean that spiritual discernment can no longer be considered a passive, optional activity. Like it or not, we have all been put in the position where we must choose - and those choices are based on our ability to effectively discern.
In this regard, we are all our own spiritual authorities. The possibility of outsourcing discernment to an external church authority is closing before us. When it comes to matters of religion and spirit, we no longer have the luxury to simply believe what we are told to believe and do what we are told to do. We must make our own judgments about these matters, and these judgments must emanate from our innermost selves and our active and willing alignment with God and Creation.
In this sense, spiritual discernment is the most important special competence we can possess in this time and place.
Read the whole thing Comments: Frank goes far towards clarifying matters, for those too caught-up in the daily virtual-reality to stand back and do it for themselves. There are at least three separable issues. 1. Birdemic Big LieThe birdemic is evidently a Big Lie - top to bottom, many-fold, from its beginning to now. Almost everything substantive we have been told about the birdemic has later been shown (by the same official/ media sources from which the first Lies came) to be not just mistaken, but calculated untruth. To know this, one only needs to be capable of common sense and memory. However, an aspect of the very general and extreme spiritual corruption of these times is that people are capable of neither. Even when (as in the UK) the Prime Minister (speaking on behalf of 'science' and 'the evidence') contradicts himself completely in the space of four days about whether Christmas 2020 'needs to be cancelled'; the obvious implications are missed, and the event is soon forgotten. Big Lies are intrinsically evil - because lying is a sin. 2. Birdemic Evil LieThe birdemic is an Evil Lie because of its provenance (evil refers to its motivation; the source tells us the motivation). The birdemic lie comes-from the Global Establishment - whose major strategies are evil; and who is explicitly anti-Christian, anti (any) God, anti-spiritual, denying of divine creation; and favouring the Big Lies of open-borders, climate emergency, antiracism and the sexual revolution including the trans agenda. They have explicitly stated their plans for transitioning the birdemic into the Great Reset - which is a atheist totalitarian dystopia. The purposive evil of the Big Lie is evident. 3. Even if the birdemic was not a Big Evil Lie...Let us assume, as a thought experiment, that the birdemic was not a Big Evil Lie - let us assume that the world Establishment was (overall) honest and Christian, therefore working for God, The Good, and divine creation (instead of against)...Let us also assume that the birdemic really was a very lethal pandemic (the current, recent, definition of 'pandemic' only means a new and wide-spreading disease - it does Not mean a dangerous disease). Let's say its mortality rate was fifty times what it really has been, and that it significantly affected the young and healthy. Let's also pretend (because it is false) that lockdowns, masks and social distancing really were known to be effective in reducing the mortality rates of this disease (rather than, as IRL, at first doing nothing then making things much worse). Would this imaginary scenario be a reason for the Roman Catholic Church to close and deny the sacraments of baptism, Mass and last rites to its flock for months or a year? Well, certainly not-if these sacraments really had the significance that Catholics assert for them. Would it be a reason to deny spiritual healing (by laying on of hands), or exorcism, or to close shrines and pilgrimage sites such as Lourdes? Certainly not, if these had the efficacy that the Roman Catholic faith asserted for them. The list could be continued. This is a stark discernment here, things have already come to a point. The Roman Catholic Church has behaved in a way that - with extreme comprehensiveness and clarity - denies its own most sacred and fundamental assumptions regarding its own authority and spiritual power. Note: I think this situation is clearest with the RCC, not least because the RCC has for centuries striven to be clear and explicit about its own beliefs and assertion. But the same basic situation prevails with all other large Christian denominations and churches. Churches have beliefs and assertions that both explain and justify their own existence - and these have been starkly contradicted by their response to the birdemic - by their willing alignment wit the Big Evil Lie. This crisis includes all of Christendom - and indeed (I would guess) all other religions - but I shall leave that to them.
"The Birdemic, spiritual discernment and the Christian Churches"
17 Comments -
"When it comes to matters of religion and spirit, we no longer have the luxury to simply believe what we are told to believe and do what we are told to do"
Well, yes, but only very few people are capeable of discernment. That's why people have been compared to sheep who need a shepherd. Priests are those shepherds.
Now there is a terrible lack of "priests". I do not use the term "priest" to simply refere to someone how was ordained, but merely to describe people who are able of discernment and help others to find their way to truth.
14 June 2021 at 11:00
@Karl - "only very few people are capable of discernment."
I don't know - because many of them will not even try to discern for themselves.
For instance because they regard it as sinful (e.g. 'prideful' or disobedient).
A lot of this is perhaps unconsciousness of how much people already discern for themselves (e.g. in choosing a church, in choosing who/ what instruction to follow from within that church etc).
This is why it is Now necessary consciously and explicitly to engage in personal discernment - rather than trying to deny or avoid it.
Only when people are consciously and conscientiously Trying to discern, would we see how many people Really *cannot* do it.
14 June 2021 at 11:55
This is just Donatist 2.0. In the fourth and fifth centuries, the pre-schism Church had to address the validity of sacraments administered by clergy who denied the faith under Diocletian's and subsequent persecutions. This is the same thing with different trappings. The Church always grappled with worldliness, for as Our Blessed Lord said, "the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak." Yes, leaders sometimes don't lead, lead poorly, or lead in the wrong direction, but as Saint Peter said, "Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life."
14 June 2021 at 14:11
@JM - "This is just Donatist 2.0" -
No it is not. Read the arguments. Think about them.
14 June 2021 at 15:48
"...denied the faith under Diocletian's and subsequent persecutions."
The churches closed themselves like nearly everything else did because everything is part of the same system, the leaders of institutions are all the same people. The church leaders are roughly analogous to Diocletian, not persecuted by someone like him.
14 June 2021 at 16:27
@ben - "the leaders of institutions are all the same people"
Yes, to an astonishing extent. And the system is global - for the first time ever. This is one of many reason why analogies with past civilizations/ empires are only very partial - and mostly misleading.
14 June 2021 at 16:48
"Yes, to an astonishing extent. And the system is global - for the first time ever. This is one of many reason why analogies with past civilizations/ empires are only very partial - and mostly misleading."
For the first time ever of course because there could not possibly have been a global anything in the past for this to be the second time around, third time around. It is the first and final globalism because once insantiated there is no redoubt no geographical square mile on he globe not under its control. Eventually it will be illegal to disagree with LGBT even in international waters and the Mauritania desert. This of course leads to an acedia never seen on this earth. c.f. all he young men on welfare who don't have the energy to even try and create a family or do anything but laze on the couch and play video games.
14 June 2021 at 18:00
Donatism 2.0? You mean, denying the validity and salvific value of the Sacraments? Are you sure that the Donatists are not those who CLOSED the Churches, saying "Public Health is more important than Sacraments, which are unessential", but rather those who point out that closing Churches is a HUGE deal?
I'm an Orthodox, a recent convert from Catholicism. Though the response of my parish was not ideal in my opinion, it wasn't awful either. For all its warts, it never denied the Sacraments to it's parishioners. For me, that's the bare minimum.
But for those who ARE in a parish that closed down entirely, I believe the right thing to do is to get the Sacraments from your parish now they're again available, but in the spirit of someone who's entering enemy territory to snatch a great treasure. Whatever you do, stop supporting it financially, yes, even with the small collection box donations. Clearly state why if asked.
14 June 2021 at 18:41
Aren't we forgetting that in many countries churches were just not allowed by the government to hold masses & other sacraments?
14 June 2021 at 21:25
Protestants don't have to worry aboug Donayism because the validity of the sacraments is not tied to the validity of a priesthood. The father can administer communion at home to his family if need be.
14 June 2021 at 21:44
I visited a friend's SSPX parish a few months ago. They never closed or masked (despite the state laws in effect). It was clear that they took their sacraments seriously, and continue to do so. At least here in the US, it is not at all odd to find churches (of various denominations) like this, and might even be the rule in more conservative locations.
What to draw from this, I don't know, I present it as a data point.
14 June 2021 at 22:43
@Jonny McGee -
One major difference, is that I'd imagine those devout Christian souls who gave way to the persecutions of Diocletian were repentant.
I'll go a step further and say they were probably penitent for the rest of their lives, haunted even.
As opposed to the current situation with the RCC, no repentance, or even much in the way of mere regret. Sometimes they even seem to celebrate their submission to secular anti-Christian authorities. They are, at the very least, convinced they did "the right thing".
15 June 2021 at 00:39
@Jon - No, we are not forgetting - the point is included in the argument as set-out.
15 June 2021 at 06:11
@cOBV - As I said, the Protestant *churches* apostasy of the past 15 months as been of a different nature; just as devastating spiritually.
But the RCC's failure is clearer in proportion as their system is clearer, more philosophically coherent, and more explicit.
15 June 2021 at 06:14
@Joel - The successful defiance of individual churches of minority denominations only goes to emphasize the failure of the large and majority churches.
But we must not be sidetracked into materialism. The defiance must be spiritual primarily. Churches may be physically compelled, but they should never endorse evil in their hearts.
What the churches actually have done is publicly, and officially, to celebrate their own enslavement to the evil worldly powers; and to encourage others happily to submit to this evil.
15 June 2021 at 06:19
Yes. Those Churches who were actually compelled to close down should have made it clear that THIS is what's going on, and that these secular rulers are no different from Communists, the Atheists of the French Revolution, and the persecuting Roman Emperors. Mention that not even the Ottoman Sultan closed down the Churches, for good measure. Make it CLEAR to their faithful that the only reason they have shut down is because of evil secular authorities. Make it clear whose side they are on.
Problem is, they DID make it clear whose side they were on, and it's the wrong side.
15 June 2021 at 15:03
What I meant is the Protestant has recourse to the sacraments still even after the pastors have abdicated; the Catholic due to his theory that only the now apostate hierarchy can administer the sacraments, does not.
15 June 2021 at 21:57