KIA MIAKKA NATISSE, HOST:
From NPR, this is INVISIBILIA. I'm Kia Miakka Natisse.
YOWEI SHAW, HOST:
And I'm Yowei Shaw.
NATISSE: And we're back.
SHAW: (Laughter) We are back. We are pumped to be back in your ears.
NATISSE: Thrilled.
SHAW: And to kick off our season today, Kia, I want to start by playing you a recording.
NATISSE: Of course. What else would we do here?
(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED RECORDING)
ALEX SONG-XIA: A big thing going on in my life right now is that I'm being interviewed for this podcast for NPR - heard of it?
NATISSE: What? What is this? What am I listening to? Someone's making jokes about our show.
SHAW: Keep listening.
(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED RECORDING)
SONG-XIA: The premise is they were looking for someone who is very uncomfortable with any kind of power.
(LAUGHTER)
SONG-XIA: And so I talked to this reporter, and she was like, great; you're perfect.
NATISSE: Are you the reporter?
SHAW: Yes. I have made it into a stand-up routine, Kia.
NATISSE: Wow. Congratulations. That's kind of big time.
SHAW: I know. Yeah. I mean, thank God I was just at the tippy top and didn't make it into a roast.
NATISSE: Oh, thank God.
SHAW: But, anyway, the person doing the stand-up is Alex Song-Xia.
(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED RECORDING)
SONG-XIA: I don't know how to say no to people.
SHAW: They're 29, an actor and writer with a fancy job in LA writing for TV. They've written for shows like "Rick And Morty"...
NATISSE: Ooh.
SHAW: ...And "The Tonight Show." And, of course, they do stand-up, which makes their hang-up about power feel kind of ironic to me, you know, 'cause they're talking about being uncomfortable with power while literally being onstage commanding an entire room of people.
NATISSE: Different strengths, different contexts - I get it.
SONG-XIA: Like, power almost scares me as a word. I feel like I have this, like, negative association with it. Like, oh, having power is bad. And yet it also feels...
SHAW: Well, I recently came across a term for this hang-up Alex is describing coined by this researcher Kathryn Hull. It's called power aversion, this ugh feeling about power. It's a new area of research. But the idea is that some of us develop negative associations about power based on what movies we watch, maybe what kinds of parents we have. And those ideas make some of us, not everybody, want to avoid power. Like, maybe we see power as a responsibility and don't want to hurt people. Or maybe we see power as fundamentally dirty and coercive.
NATISSE: I'm two for two on both those topics. I'm like, I don't want the responsibility, and I think it's dirty.
SHAW: Yeah. Yeah. So there is research that suggests power can be dangerous - frees you up to act more in line with whatever your goals and instincts are, good or bad.
NATISSE: Power is a mirror.
SHAW: But I talked to these researchers who argue that this feeling about power, this aversion to it, is based on a misunderstanding about power.
TIZIANA CASCIARO: Especially if you have experience, you have witnessed the dark side of power, it's understandable you want to stay away from it.
JULIE BATTILANA: Turn away from power.
SHAW: This is Tiziana Casciaro and Julie Battilana. They're organizational behavior researchers who've been studying power for two decades and wrote this book called "Power For All." And they argue that there is nothing inherently dirty about power. Here's how they define it.
BATTILANA: Power is the ability to influence other people's behavior.
SHAW: To Julie and Tiziana, power at its most basic level is neutral. It's not good or bad. What makes power dirty is how you acquire it and what you use it for. But because we see so many examples of power being abused and because our brains tend to pay more attention to the bad than the good, Julie and Tiziana argue that people can develop this allergic reaction to power. They get this ugh feeling that can make them want to try to opt out of the power game, which is dangerous because...
CASCIARO: You are surrendering your responsibilities.
BATTILANA: You leave it to others to decide for you.
NATISSE: I mean, I feel them. And also, sometimes that ugh feeling comes from, like, real-life experience where you see people abuse power. There might be, you know, societal structures that hold people back.
SHAW: Yeah. Yeah. I think Julie and Tiziana would agree with that. What they're arguing is if you even want a shot at changing the way things are, you have to engage with power dynamics and understand how they work. This applies in all kinds of contexts - you know, the workplace, your community, politics, even your personal life, like with Alex.
(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED RECORDING)
SONG-XIA: What's your favorite seat on an airplane?
UNIDENTIFIED PERSON #1: Window.
UNIDENTIFIED PERSON #2: Window.
SONG-XIA: Window.
UNIDENTIFIED PERSON #3: Aisle.
UNIDENTIFIED PEOPLE: Aisle.
SONG-XIA: Aisle, OK. I love the middle seat so no one is mad at me.
(LAUGHTER)
SONG-XIA: I'll sit there. I won't use the bathroom, so I won't make you get up.
SHAW: I feel like there are two categories of people - those of us who would rather hold our pee than ask people to get up on a plane, like me, and then the people who just ask for what their bodies need.
NATISSE: You know that's me. I listen to this body.
SHAW: I know. I love this about you. But for a lot of us pee holders, using our power in service of what we want and need - that's hard.
(SOUNDBITE OF MUTE MORNINGS' "ON THE CEILING")
SHAW: So on today's episode, we're going to focus on what power aversion looks like on an interpersonal level in the everyday interactions we all experience, how opting out can backfire on ourselves and the people we love and how our boldest power moves might be the ones we don't realize we're making.
NATISSE: Yowei's got the story after the break.
SHAW: If you think about power as the ability to influence people's behavior, Alex doesn't even try. They don't make decisions for the group. They don't intervene or confront. Instead, Alex compulsively submits to what other people want.
SONG-XIA: Somebody else makes the decisions and sets the expectations. And my job is just to try to fulfill them and then feel like dying if I can't.
SHAW: It makes me think of that yes-anding technique from improv - you know, where whatever anybody does in a scene, you're supposed to roll with it. But in Alex's case, it's like they're stuck in a never-ending improv scene where they only yes-and, which makes Alex fun and spontaneous, down for whatever. They might end up at Disneyland tomorrow. Who knows? Just text them.
SONG-XIA: A note for an improviser like that would be like, oh, actually, the scene will get funnier if you state your preferences and say how you're actually feeling.
SHAW: Interesting. Wow. It's like the improv note is perfect for Alex in real life, too.
They yes-and to a weekly scary movie night even though they don't like scary movies...
SONG-XIA: I just, like, really wanted to nail the assignment.
SHAW: They yes-and to strangers stealing avocados from their tree. They'll even hide so people can steal in peace.
SONG-XIA: Take as many as you want.
SHAW: The other week, they yes-anded to giving an audience member a ride home - a man they'd never met - after doing a bit on stage where they'd practiced saying no to favors.
SONG-XIA: I fully acknowledge that I was the one to say, oh, do you want a ride? He just mentioned that his car was in the shop, and the words came out of me.
(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)
SHAW: And then there's all the times Alex yes-ands to friends.
LAUREN KAHN: I can always count on her to say yes to things, whether it actually happens or not. But, like, she's always, like, down.
SHAW: Alex, by the way, uses both they and she pronouns. They're fine with either.
KAHN: But then, like, she'll tell me, like, anecdotes of other people - just like, I hated it. I didn't want to do that at all. And now I'm like, have I made you do things, like, you really, like, hated me for?
SHAW: This is Lauren Kahn, also a comedian and one of Alex's best friends. By now Lauren is fine with the endless tango to make plans - literally any plans.
KAHN: Let's go on a hike. Yeah. Let's go on a hike. Do you want to come over here, or should I go over there? Oh, I don't care. What do you want to do? I don't really care. I'm really flex. I'll go wherever. Cool, cool, cool.
SHAW: But sometimes - and it's hard to know when this will happen - Alex yes-ands, and then, boom.
KAHN: You don't get anything from her. She just completely ices you out.
SHAW: Like, one time years ago, Alex said yes to helping Lauren make a video, and they were at Lauren's apartment getting ready to shoot when Lauren got the feeling Alex didn't want to be there.
KAHN: Mentally, she just kind of was low.
SHAW: And then all of a sudden, Lauren's roommate burst into the room crying about a breakup.
KAHN: And so now Alex and I, who are already kind of in an awkward position because she's doing me a favor, and she's just, like, not really feeling it...
SHAW: Eventually, the roommate left. Lauren apologized to Alex. But then, without any explanation, Alex also got up and left.
KAHN: And she, like, left all of her stuff there, like, her, like, tripod that she had brought, and did not say what the problem was. I, like, started sobbing because I was like, what the fuck just happened? Like, what did I do?
SONG-XIA: I think what I'm reckoning with right now is like, oh, I think I used to do stuff like that all the time. And I didn't expect people to remember and, like, have been affected by it.
SHAW: What do you mean?
SONG-XIA: Like, what I can remember from that and also just other experiences where I've reacted in that way is that usually I - like, in that moment I just, like, feel like I can't exist in that space. And so I have to leave, like, not quite realizing what I'm leaving in my wake.
SHAW: Alex told me about other times they've shut down, not responded to texts and calls, where after a while of yes-anding to things they don't want to do, the cycle begins.
SONG-XIA: These little complaints about a friend or acquaintance - and I feel a little guilty feeling them, but then when it reaches that breaking point, it is like this burst of anger that I'm just trying to, like, put back in the box 'cause it feels kind of scary, and it's not like I wanted it to be that way. I think it's, like, from years of not taking power in a healthy way and then it, like, coming out in this unhealthy way instead.
(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)
SHAW: Alex can remember a time when they knew exactly what they wanted and asked for it. When Alex was growing up, their parents fought a lot, and Alex constantly tried to intervene. Like, once, when they were just 5, Alex tried stopping a bad fight by writing a story about how the fighting made them sad, hoping their mom would find it, which she did.
SONG-XIA: My mom said it made her super sad, and they would try to fight less. And then, like, the very next day, nothing changed.
SHAW: Do you think that that is what is at the core of, like, the aversion to - or part of it?
SONG-XIA: Like, that it'll be ineffectual?
SHAW: Yeah, or just kind of, like, well, what's the point?
SONG-XIA: Yeah, I guess so.
SHAW: Or maybe the aversion comes from Alex wanting to please their loving but opinionated mom growing up...
SONG-XIA: Just, like, oh, this is my life's purpose. I'm so happy about it.
SHAW: ...Or maybe this.
SONG-XIA: I do think, like, probably a little bit of, like, being seen as a quiet, small, Asian girl is part of it.
SHAW: Whatever the case, Alex eventually just stopped asking for things in general.
Well, I have to imagine, you know, not asserting your needs and desires over and over again - that, like, that has to take a toll on the psyche somehow.
SONG-XIA: No, I'm doing great.
SHAW: It feels like you're almost constantly making yourself smaller.
SONG-XIA: Or I feel like I'm almost more comfortable smaller. But then, occasionally, I'll be - I'll get resentful or upset that I have found myself so small.
(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)
SONG-XIA: OK. Oh, I don't think I've done this in a week.
SHAW: Over the years, Alex has tried to find ways to deal with these feelings. They've been in therapy since they were 19, and when they used to work at a frozen yogurt shop, they'd go out back with a broomstick and smash cardboard boxes.
SONG-XIA: (Screaming).
SHAW: Screaming on the highway helps them, too.
SONG-XIA: Oh, I do love to do that (screaming).
SHAW: That scream - when I heard Alex scream in the car, I wanted to try too...
(Screaming) Whoa.
...Because as someone who also has trouble saying what I want, despite being a host and a union shop steward - the other week I couldn't ask for a glass of water at my in-laws' house even though I was thirsty - it's not just the resentment of not taking up space with your desires and feelings. It's the shame of being somebody who doesn't.
I feel like there's all this discourse out there about, let's get rid of the stereotype of the quiet, submissive Asian woman, which I think is so important. And, also, I sometimes quietly think to myself, God, but, like, what if that's me?
SONG-XIA: Right, 'cause also I feel like people see me as very, like, deadpan. I feel like that is also a stereotype. And I'm like, oh, God, what part is me, and what part is the stereotype?
SHAW: Yes. And you're like, did I get conditioned this way because of, like, racism, patriarchy, etc., or am I really this way?
SONG-XIA: Right. But it is interesting 'cause I feel like there is the stereotype, but then, at the same time, the stereotype of, like, loud Asian mom or whatever.
SHAW: Oh, I never thought about putting those two stereotypes together. Do you start out as the quiet submissive, and then, because of rage...
SONG-XIA: Whoa.
SHAW: ...At not asserting yourself all throughout life, you become the loud, very assertive, bitchy mom?
SONG-XIA: I never thought about the transition point or that it's fueled by rage.
SHAW: But Alex is tired - tired of doing things they don't want to do, hurting people they don't want to hurt. And so Alex is ready to address their power aversion.
SONG-XIA: Not wanting to be this person who rolls over all the time anymore, will it feel good? I don't know.
SHAW: After the break, we enlist the help of a power professional.
KASIA URBANIAK: If you had all the power you wanted, what would you do with it?
(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)
SHAW: The challenge of doing a story about somebody who compulsively yes-ands is how do you know that they're not just yes-anding you to make you happy? I brought this up with Alex in our first interview. How will I know you're not just, like, trying to please me?
SONG-XIA: (Laughter) You'll never know.
SHAW: And then it happened. I'd pitched Alex on a coaching session with a power professional, someone who could help Alex navigate the invisible power dynamics running underneath everyday interactions. And they were into it.
SONG-XIA: Especially if it's a breakdown of each interaction - like, that's so fascinating to me.
SHAW: But the day of the session, there's a problem.
Do you even want to do it?
SONG-XIA: No, but I don't - it's fine. It's, like, the same cycle that I feel like we've been talking about, where I just feel very resentful right now, I think, because at some point I, like, didn't speak up for what I wanted.
SHAW: Two months in, Alex says they're feeling exhausted by the story, sick of spending so many hours on interviews, sick of me asking to talk to their friends. They're saying that they don't want to do the session today, but also that they do.
SONG-XIA: What do you want and how are you feeling right now are probably the two hardest questions in the world to me.
SHAW: We talk it out. Alex feels better. They say they want to do the session.
SONG-XIA: And the conversation has made me feel a lot better. I think I was...
SHAW: And I double-check.
I wanted to check back in around...
I triple-check.
...How you're feeling about - pause - I wanted to circle back. Do you want to do this or not?
SONG-XIA: Yes.
SHAW: So a few hours later, the session starts on video call.
SONG-XIA: Hi, Kasia. Nice to meet you.
URBANIAK: Nice to meet you, too.
SHAW: The power professional - her name's Kasia Urbaniak. She spent 17 years working as a professional dominatrix and now teaches classes on interpersonal power dynamics - things like asking for a raise, advocating for yourself at the doctor's office, dealing with your boss putting their hand on your thigh.
URBANIAK: Very often when we're trying to be powerful, our gendered conditioning gets in our way, and we end up accidentally maintaining the status quo we want to change.
SHAW: I came across Kasia's work after reading her book, "Unbound: A Woman's Guide To Power." And, to be clear, despite the title, Kasia works with people from all marginalized genders, such as people like Alex. And normally, self-empowerment books aren't my thing. But I was interested in the way Kasia talks about power dynamics, how she zooms in on what you can do in that wiggle room beneath all the other systems of power - race, class, gender.
URBANIAK: Anybody that gets objectified is also getting pushed into the submissive state.
SHAW: Again, this isn't therapy. Kasia isn't a therapist. She says she's not trying to understand the root of why someone does what they do. But what you're about to hear does get personal and intense because, to Kasia, power starts with the ability to access your deepest desires.
URBANIAK: So tell me what you want. Tell me something about what you want.
SONG-XIA: OK. Well, when Yowei first asked me this question, I said I have no wants.
URBANIAK: Yeah. Why would you volunteer for this?
SONG-XIA: I guess I would like - or I want to be known and understood.
URBANIAK: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
SHAW: Kasia doesn't seem satisfied with the response. She wants a more concrete desire from Alex to work with. So she asks the question again...
URBANIAK: If you had all the power you wanted, what would you do with it?
SHAW: ...And again...
URBANIAK: But what's the thing you want?
SHAW: ...In different ways...
URBANIAK: Not what do you want to stop or prevent or to be relieved of.
SHAW: ...In different tones...
URBANIAK: Do you want this? Are you...
SHAW: What do you want?
URBANIAK: Do you want anything?
SONG-XIA: What's the thing I want? That's hard. Yeah, I want...
SHAW: Alex doesn't finish their sentence. Kasia suggests that, by continuing to hide their preferences and desires, Alex is able to exert some control, but not in a way that feels good for anyone.
URBANIAK: Not only do the people in your life not know where the boundary is with you, it's not just that you don't tell them stop - this hurts. I don't like this. It's not just that you don't share your no. I suspect that you also don't share your yes, so that I would have to know Alex for quite a long time before I knew how, specifically, to light you up, to turn you on, to bring you to orgasm, to blow your mind. I would need quite a bit of time before I knew how to make you happy. I just saw your mood change.
SONG-XIA: Yeah. I think maybe I'm in a - like, a little bit of - not defensive mode, but maybe I feel, like, outsmarted a bit, and I don't know what to expect.
SHAW: So Kasia tries again.
URBANIAK: Do you have any career desires? Do you want a relationship with your family? I'm still looking for your desire.
SONG-XIA: What do I want?
SHAW: Until...
SONG-XIA: Right now, I feel just like I'm drowning, trying to get your approval.
URBANIAK: What's going on right now?
SONG-XIA: I am trying not to cry. But it's not working.
URBANIAK: Let's take a break, and I'm going to rethink how to approach this. OK?
SONG-XIA: OK.
URBANIAK: OK.
SHAW: We sign off. And I have no idea what just happened. Like, oh, my God. Did Alex not want to do this? Should I have intervened? Are they OK?
Hey.
Kasia calls me on the phone.
URBANIAK: So this is super painful. This is the first time in 10 years where I've had this much trouble working with somebody.
SHAW: Kasia says she feels, quote, "suffocated by an avalanche of flowers and butterflies." She says she needs a cheeseburger and a good night's rest - definitely a break before trying again, if Alex wants to try again.
URBANIAK: I personally feel like this was a catastrophe...
SHAW: Really?
URBANIAK: ...And that I failed miserably, and the session hasn't even started. We haven't even started doing the thing that I thought I was doing here. So I don't know - I don't expect Alex to be feeling great right now.
SHAW: I call Alex.
(SOUNDBITE OF PHONE RINGING)
SHAW: Hey.
SONG-XIA: Hi.
SHAW: How are you doing?
SONG-XIA: I'm fine. How are you?
SHAW: I didn't realize it was going to be like that. I'm sorry if, like, that was not good for you.
And Alex, to my surprise, is not shaken like Kasia.
SONG-XIA: Yeah. All I needed was a pee break. I don't - like, I'm fine.
SHAW: Oh, OK. OK.
SONG-XIA: I'd rather go the hard way, like, diving in. So if it's mostly around, like, protecting me, like I don't need that. I just, like, want to see it through.
SHAW: Alex says they want to keep going.
OK. OK.
And when I check in with them a few days later to see how they're feeling, still a yes.
SONG-XIA: That'd be awesome. Yeah, I want to read her book and everything. Yeah.
SHAW: And maybe it's the directness and warmth in their voice. Maybe it's because they've had a few days. This time, I believe them.
SONG-XIA: No, I felt good, and I felt very excited. I'm sorry you were worried. Right - because I did also cry during it.
(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)
SHAW: When we return, the power averse and the power expert face off for a rematch.
(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)
URBANIAK: Hi.
SONG-XIA: Hi.
URBANIAK: Oh, my God. Your doggy is so cute.
SONG-XIA: Aw, thank you.
SHAW: Well, we are gathered here today...
(LAUGHTER)
SHAW: Alex and Kasia agreed to meet on video call again a week later. And I bring up another thing Alex told me about last session, that they actually felt powerful by the end of it, like they'd beaten Kasia at her own game, which was confusing.
URBANIAK: The aversion to power makes sense to me, but I don't confuse that for a second with actual powerlessness.
SHAW: In fact, Kasia agrees with Alex.
URBANIAK: You won. You literally won. And I know there was...
SONG-XIA: I...
URBANIAK: ...No ill intent, no malice. But, like, in terms of power dynamics, you won. I lost.
SONG-XIA: I will, full disclosure, say that I said to my friends after, I think I broke a dominatrix.
(LAUGHTER)
SHAW: But Kasia isn't conceding total defeat because it was the kind of win where nobody really wins because she says Alex won using a kind of covert power.
URBANIAK: She didn't get anything. She prevented me from getting what I wanted. And in that process, she didn't get what she wanted, either.
SONG-XIA: I agree with you. Like, I felt good, but I also was frustrated. Like, no, I want to keep going.
URBANIAK: Yeah. So it's going to feel really, really, really good in the defensive sense of not getting gotten. But also, over enough time, not getting gotten is its own tragedy.
SHAW: Alex has a lot of experience not getting got. They've brought this up with me before.
SONG-XIA: Oh, this is the thing you want from me? Well, you can't have it.
SHAW: It's a protective stalemate...
SONG-XIA: So I'll suffer and be miserable, as well.
SHAW: ...That Kasia thinks people can develop as a coping mechanism but doesn't help you get what you want.
URBANIAK: The survival strategy for that is to have your own personal preferences erased, be invisible. So I don't want anything. I don't need anything. I'm no trouble. I'm not here. The issue with that is for an individual human being, power and desire are interrelated. You can't be powerful without wanting something because what are you using the power for? And if you're not using the power for what you want, you're not powerful, right? If you're using the power for what your parents want or what somebody else wants, that's not power.
(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)
SHAW: So if Alex's aversion to power isn't getting them what they want, how can they start using power to get what they do want? To address this, Kasia has a framework for thinking about power dynamics between people. She thinks it's useful to focus on attention, what she calls the dominant and submissive states, language she says she's borrowing from her experience as a dominatrix, but she wants to be clear.
URBANIAK: I'm not talking about BDSM. I'm just using those words in the context of communication and power.
SHAW: To Kasia, the dom and sub states aren't about bullying or getting on your knees, this binary way we tend to think about dominance and submission in our culture. It's about controlling the direction of your attention in any given interaction for the purpose of connection.
URBANIAK: Every single person uses both states of attention.
SHAW: Kasia says the dominant state is all about putting your attention on the other person. It's outward, so you take notice. You ask questions.
URBANIAK: If you're in the dominant state of attention and you're talking to someone and you're watching to see if they get it, if they don't get it, you don't keep going. You have to slow down. If you're not fully in touch with the person that you're leading, you could harm them. You could hurt them.
SHAW: Kasia thinks people misunderstand dominance. So when somebody's mansplaining or yelling at someone...
URBANIAK: It's somebody who's performing dominance, but their attention isn't fully on how this is being received. And it's full of ego. And the attention is partly in, I'm so great, and partly out.
SHAW: And even though Alex thinks of themself as more submissive in life, according to Kasia's theory, they might actually have already mastered the dominant state of attention, at least on stage.
SONG-XIA: I think I feel the most comfortable when I'm doing crowd work...
SHAW: In fact, they once did an entire hour-long set just of crowd work - just pure attention on the audience, making jokes from their reactions, and loved it.
URBANIAK: That is some edgy, edgy stuff. Like...
SONG-XIA: It's my favorite thing.
URBANIAK: You're a daredevil (laughter).
SHAW: The submissive state, on the other hand, is all about going inward with your attention, checking in with how you really feel, what you really want.
URBANIAK: I like this. I don't like that. I really don't like that. I love that.
Ooh, that felt really good.
That tasted really good.
Ha-ha. That was really funny.
Well, that was really sad.
That really hurt my feelings.
That helps the person in the dominant position lead accurately, make jokes accurately.
SHAW: Kasia says both states are equally powerful for influencing people, and ideally, everyone would use both and switch when the moment calls for it - a constant dance.
URBANIAK: If you think about, like, the best conversations you've ever had or the best lovemaking sessions you've ever had, it's not two equals; it's two people's attention flawlessly and fully back and forth, like in tennis - you and now you, you and now me, you and now me.
(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)
SHAW: But when people don't fully inhabit either state, Kasia says power dynamics can get screwy, which, for Alex, happens all the time in their personal life.
SONG-XIA: The question I did have was about - I feel like I also do direct a lot of attention outward, trying to guess what other people want in, like, a pretty hypervigilant state. But that doesn't feel powerful to me.
URBANIAK: What I want to call attention to is that this is a responsive - right? - state, so, like...
SONG-XIA: Oh.
SHAW: So their attention is outward, but it's mainly out of concern for how other people are thinking about them.
URBANIAK: It's outward in relation to yourself.
SHAW: And then there's Alex's main struggle - as Kasia calls it, being a bad sub, not fully going inward with their attention to know how they really feel, what they really want, which presents all kinds of difficulties in daily life, like with making plans.
SONG-XIA: I've had this problem for a long time where I overcommit to things. I just say yes to everything, and then I'm a big canceler.
SHAW: Kasia thinks controlling the pacing of the conversation can help, buying some time to go sub and check in with yourself...
URBANIAK: If you get it in your mind that you have a remote control and you have the right to pause, rewind, fast-forward, record...
SHAW: ...So that you don't just blurt an automatic yes.
URBANIAK: Hold on. I can't answer now.
Oh, where is it?
How long have you been planning it?
When do you need to know by?
SHAW: And instead, you can get to the particular desires you want from people. Maybe a friend thinks you're the person to complain about work with, but actually, you just want to play tennis with them, no work talk. Well, Kasia says you don't have to accept the whole package, and you might not get what you want by asking, but you might connect with your friend in a deeper way by discovering something new about both of you.
URBANIAK: It's a way to appreciate what you authentically value about the people around you. Then when you have an access to some kind of desire, you can formulate your own invitation and ask so that any time that they come at you with the thing that they want, you can say no thanks to that, but how about this?
SONG-XIA: Because I think there was a part of me that thought it would be superficial to think, oh, I like this friend for this reason and this friend for this reason.
URBANIAK: It's a really, really, really prevalent taboo. But let me reframe it for you because here's the thing. So I now know that you're a stand-up comedian. You must love making the audience laugh.
SONG-XIA: It's - yes, it's fun (laughter).
URBANIAK: So if the people in your life know how to delight you, even if it's, like, your taste in brownies, if it's, like, the kind of movies you like, if they know what truly lights you up, what they can give to you, provide for you or do for you, you are also doing them a favor. You're giving them the power to delight you so they can feel like they matter in your life. And there's - no lying works here. No pretending - oh, thank you. I'm so - doesn't work. So giving other people instructions on how to matter in your life and how to delight you is a kindness.
SONG-XIA: I like that a lot.
SHAW: When we wrap up the session, the Zoom room feels warm.
URBANIAK: I'm fine.
(LAUGHTER)
SONG-XIA: I felt great. It felt really good.
SHAW: The attention is moving back and forth - no blockages.
URBANIAK: You know, but one thing that I'm really enjoying with this whole exchange with you, Alex, is the places where we get disempowered, the most insidious and most dangerous and detrimental ones are the small, constant repeat offenses, right? It's, like, the small things that happen all the time - the not being able to say no, not being able to exercise your preferences and even know what they are. And those are the ones that are happening to most of us most of the time. And it's not important enough to merit a bigger conversation. And yet, in terms of the language of the body, how we occupy space and how we navigate our lives, it's everything. It's everything.
SHAW: Hi.
SONG-XIA: Hi. How's it going?
SHAW: A few weeks later, I check in with Alex one last time.
SONG-XIA: I was really nervous for this check-in call because I wanted to be, like, some all-powerful being by the time we talked again. But I think I'm just still - I'm still just me.
SHAW: Alex has not been feeling powerful. Like, somebody recently tried to make plans to hang out, and Alex didn't want to. And they didn't say yes, but they didn't say no. And they're still avoiding a neighbor they've been beefing with.
Are you using your front yard?
SONG-XIA: No.
SHAW: But if Alex thinks hard about it, they have been making more requests lately. They recently got this adorable rescue pup named Bandit, which also means needing to ask people to watch Bandit.
SONG-XIA: Bandit, you cannot go to the bathroom right on the place where it says no dogs at all.
(LAUGHTER)
UNIDENTIFIED PERSON #4: That's the best spot.
SHAW: And Alex has found a community to do that for each other - also just going on walks together.
SONG-XIA: Good job, you guys. Ooh.
Yeah. It's been this really nice thing of, like, oh, before, I would have never had a reason to ask them for these things. And it's been nice to, like, have this bond with them now.
SHAW: It's like asking for things that you need, and then getting them fulfilled is a way of connection and bonding. Like, it's intimacy.
SONG-XIA: Yeah, it is. Yeah. Although it does still feel like I need practice at it, but it is nice.
SHAW: It's still scary in the moment. But instead of throwing their phone at the wall or doing whatever they can to avoid having to rely on someone else, Alex is pushing through. Like, the other week, they asked a friend to dog sit even though they were worried about over asking. And even though the friend said yes...
SONG-XIA: I felt relief, and also a little bit like, OK, can they really do it? Am I putting them out? But then the next day, she texted me, like, thank you for sharing Bandit with me. And I just thought that was really nice of like, oh, I didn't even see it as, like, she likes to hang out with him and have our two dogs hang out. And it's not just me being a terrible imposition.
(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)
SHAW: Turns out, letting other people yes-and you - not so terrible.
You can, like, tell when she's got a poop brewing.
SONG-XIA: Oh, that's good - I wish Bandit had a tell for that.
SHAW: Huge tell.
SONG-XIA: He doesn't, like - although the other day, he started rubbing his butt on the ground more, and I was like, oh, maybe that's his tell.
(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)
NATISSE: That's it for today's show. This episode was produced by Phoebe Wang, Lee Hale, with a big assist from Ariana Gharib Lee, Clare Marie Schneider, Nick Nevis (ph), Andrew Mambo and our incredible intern, Sarah Long. This season of Invisibilia was also produced by me, Kia Miakka Natisse, Yowei Shaw and Abby Lindell (ph). Our supervising producer is Liana Simstrom. And our supervising editor is Neena Pathak. Fact-checking by Greta Pittenger. Additional research help from Debbie Goodhertz (ph) and Lauren Beard. Mastering by James Willetts. Our technical director is Andie Huether. Legal and standards support from Kimberly Sullivan and Tony Kavan (ph).
SHAW: Thank you, thank you to all the listeners who wrote in about your experiences with power and all the people we spoke to - Summer Hill, Fatima Hersey (ph), Lindsey Klonig (ph), Marin Robinson (ph), Malini Stamp (ph). And thank you to these experts - Kathryn Hull, Peter Belmi, Jonathan Smucker (ph) and so many more. You can find a bunch of interesting articles, books and studies that informed our reporting on our episode page. Also, additional thanks to Alexandra Dixon (ph), Edalina Lancenies (ph), Bruce Auster, Carly Boyce (ph), Cassius Adair of Sylveon Sylvian Consulting, Christina Kim (ph), Emily Feng, Jennifer Schmidt, Jess Jiang, Luis Trelles, Kyle Pulley, Laine Kaplan-Levenson, Leena Sanzgiri, Sam Leeds and Skyler Swenson (ph).
NATISSE: Our deputy managing editor is Shirley Henry. And our senior vice president of programming is Anya Grundmann. Theme music by Infinity Knives. And additional music in this episode provided by Connor Lafitte, Connor Moore from CMoore Sound, Henry Schiller (ph), Magnus Moon, courtesy of Tribe of Noise, and Ramtin Arablouei.
SHAW: And I cannot let you go without telling you about something I learned that is now burned into my brain.
NATISSE: Of course. One last power tidbit.
SHAW: So I talked to this researcher, Vanessa Bohns, who studies what happens when people make requests. And her work shows it's not just Alex with the problem, it's also the people who are doing the asking, who in all her studies consistently underestimate how hard it is for other people to say no to them.
VANESSA BOHNS: So there's this sort of misperception that it's easy to say no.
SHAW: Yeah. So when Vanessa makes requests, especially when she has more power, like with graduate students, she tries to make sure they're not just yes-anding (ph). And she does this simple thing where she just makes people email her their answer.
BOHNS: I won't even let people tell me in person their answer to a question where I'm like, I'm not 100% sure. I'm just like, please, just think about it.
NATISSE: Oh, that's a smart move. Like, give people more time. They might have a no in them.
SHAW: Yeah. Anyways, you can find out more about Vanessa's research in a Q&A in this week's newsletter, as well as seriously cute photos of Alex and their dog, Bandit. Sign up at npr.org/invisibilianewsletter.
NATISSE: All righty (ph). See you next week.
SHAW: OK.
(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)
SHAW: Oh, this is, like, not story related. So my friend lives in LA. She has this birthday party this weekend. And she's trying to make, like, this giant vat of guacamole.
SONG-XIA: Oh, my gosh.
SHAW: I think the recipe calls for, like, a lot of avocados. But it was - I was just wondering, like, do you have any avocados to spare?
SONG-XIA: I have some on hand. They're like the ones that have, like, blemishes on them, but they're, like, generally pretty solid on the inside. And then I can also check my tree. But...
SHAW: Alex, this was the test (laughter).
SONG-XIA: Oh, my God. Seriously? No.
SHAW: I'm sorry.
SONG-XIA: No. I failed with such flying colors. No.
SHAW: Oh, my God.
SONG-XIA: This was a test. And all I did was, like, let me try to help you (laughter).
Copyright © 2022 NPR. All rights reserved. Visit our website terms of use and permissions pages at www.npr.org for further information.
NPR transcripts are created on a rush deadline by an NPR contractor. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Accuracy and availability may vary. The authoritative record of NPR’s programming is the audio record.