BRITTANY LUSE, HOST:
Hello, hello. I'm Brittany Luse, and you're listening to IT'S BEEN A MINUTE from NPR, a show about what's going on in culture and why it doesn't happen by accident.
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LUSE: Da'Vine Joy Randolph just keeps winning - at the BAFTAs...
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CHIWETEL EJIOFOR: And the BAFTA goes to Da'Vine Joy Randolph, "The Holdovers."
LUSE: ...The Golden Globes...
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DA'VINE JOY RANDOLPH: I would like to thank the Hollywood Foreign Press for this award.
LUSE: ...The Critics Choice Awards...
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RANDOLPH: And I want to have a moment to thank the incredible women in my life who have made me the artist I am today.
LUSE: ...And now she's up for an Oscar for best supporting actress. And it's not hype because her latest performance really is that spectacular. In "The Holdovers," she plays Mary Lamb, the head cook at a boys boarding school in 1970s Massachusetts.
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RANDOLPH: (As Mary Lamb) The Osgood kid? Yeah, he was a real [expletive] - rich and dumb, popular combination around here.
LUSE: Mary is no-nonsense but loving and grieving a son who's been killed in the Vietnam War. It's a moving and subtle portrayal of grief. And for Da'Vine, she says it's her new standard for herself and all future collaborators.
RANDOLPH: Everyone, please come at Da'Vine at this level. I've been waiting for this level of quality. We hit it. I don't want anything below it.
LUSE: She's absolutely set a new gold standard for me when it comes to character depth, and her process for creating these roles is awe-inspiring. I sat down with Da'Vine to chat about how she conveys a character spirit and the personal stories she drew from to build this particular Oscar-worthy performance, all while battling Hollywood's ideas about who a curvy Black woman like herself could portray.
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LUSE: Da'Vine Joy Randolph, welcome to IT'S BEEN A MINUTE.
RANDOLPH: Thank you for having me.
LUSE: OK, so we're here to talk about you, but specifically also your role in "The Holdovers." And your character, Mary, she makes the film. Although your performance is, like, the beating heart of this film, Mary is technically a supporting character. And on the surface, some might assume that Mary is a familiar stereotype...
RANDOLPH: Right.
LUSE: ...The woman who's, you know, cooking in the kitchen, and she's a supporting role. But you saw her as so much more. What about the script and the character grabbed your attention and made you want to say yes to "The Holdovers"?
RANDOLPH: I think the biggest thing was that there was room for me to fill in the blanks. Now, when I say fill in the blank, sometimes I fill in the blanks and that means because, quite frankly, the work wasn't fully done. I think it's one or two things. They over-write it, or they don't write enough. And this was in a really sweet spot where they were clear in their intention of what it was that they wanted. And from the jump, I felt welcomed in. I really wanted to make sure that she was someone that people could really connect with, no matter what they looked like. I am always trying to leave Easter eggs or subliminal messages, whatever you want to call it, with my characters of all roles, but especially with her - certain nuances of how she wore her hair, her glasses. Her glasses are my grandmother's glasses.
LUSE: Your grandmother's glasses?
RANDOLPH: To be clear, it wasn't her exact glasses. I showed them a picture of my grandmother with her glasses to the props, and I said, if you could find these glasses, that would really be awesome. And not only did they find the glasses, but my grandmother had this little dainty gold-linked chain 'cause she would always lose them or, you know, put them - sit them down. She'd like, Da'Vine, where are my - Grandma, I don't know what your glasses is at. They're probably on your head. I don't know where they're at. And she's always misplacing them.
LUSE: It sounds like you saw the same sort of love and connection that you held for your grandmother and the other women that you admire in your life. You could feel it on the page.
RANDOLPH: Yes.
LUSE: Like you said, the role was in that sweet spot. But you also had such a clear vision...
RANDOLPH: Oh, thank you.
LUSE: ...Of this role. Like, I heard an interview where you said that you had a lookbook of almost 200 hairstyles.
RANDOLPH: Yeah.
LUSE: And...
RANDOLPH: I do that in general. This is kind of how I operate.
LUSE: Well, that's what I want to know. I mean, it seems like there's a mix of process involved, but it also feels like there's a spiritual element as well. Like, where do you get this vision from, these kind of clear visions that you have for your characters?
RANDOLPH: It's something that my teacher told me - her name was Donna Snow - something she said to me that always stuck with me. She was like, woman to woman - and this was blonde-haired, blue-eyed, amazing, beautiful-souled woman who said to me, as women, our opportunities aren't as much. And then for you, your opportunities for quality is even smaller. So when you get the opportunity to portray anything, it is an honor, it is a gift, and it is a blessing. And you are resurrecting - speaking of spiritual - that person's essence. What I try to do is I endow personalities, the essence of these women that I'm creating. And I think and I hope the process of me doing that is what viewers connect to. You're really talking about empathy and humanity at the core, right? We all have that woman in our life that means X, Y and Z. I think that's why sometimes memes, for a random example, are so enjoyable, because a meme can be like that time when da, da, da, da, da, da, da. Everybody knows what that is. Everybody knows what it means. That's what makes it enjoyable.
LUSE: It sounds like what you're trying to do is be familiar.
RANDOLPH: Yes.
LUSE: And that is something that really struck me with your performance of Mary Lamb in "The Holdovers." I mean, your character was so familiar.
RANDOLPH: Thank you.
LUSE: I know people don't smoke as much indoors, but I mean, Mary reminded me...
RANDOLPH: Everybody got that one auntie that smoke in the house.
LUSE: ...Of an auntie of mine that used to smoke (laughter) in the house when I was growing up.
RANDOLPH: Everybody's like, listen here, Mary, take it outside. She'd be like, listen, this is my house. I don't really care what y'all got to say.
LUSE: (Laughter) Say.
RANDOLPH: Everybody has that auntie, you know?
LUSE: On the topic of familiarity, I'm not from Boston, but I have a whole wing of my family in Boston. And that accent...
RANDOLPH: Yeah.
LUSE: ...Was so - it was so finely tuned.
RANDOLPH: Thank you.
LUSE: You know, like you mentioned, the glasses, the smoking, the hair, specifically when was it pulled back and when was it put up? All of those things felt so real.
RANDOLPH: Oh, and you already know hair is such a thing. At one point in the beginning conversations, they wanted her in rollers the entire time. I said, y'all, ain't no way. I don't care if it's "The Holdovers"...
LUSE: No.
RANDOLPH: ...Or not. She's at work.
LUSE: Exactly. That's like if I'm sitting here talking to you on Zoom with a bonnet. It's not happening.
RANDOLPH: Those nuances allow people to attach.
LUSE: The emotional carriage, though, of Mary also felt really familiar, being that family member or just being many Black women in many of our lives who are going through something difficult. I heard that in preparing for this role that you drew from one of your own family member's grief to sort of inform your work as Mary.
RANDOLPH: Yeah. So my aunt's son, my cousin, had passed away abruptly. Very tragic and very sudden. First of all, they say it is one of the most difficult and hardest and most unnatural things for a parent to surpass and survive their child. He was, like, just starting to really get his life together and was in a good place. And I'm sure she felt as if the moment that he was on his right path, she felt as though he was taken away. And maybe no more than six months later, she had cancer. I was my teens. I knew that she was slowly dying of a broken heart. And no one said anything. You know, we were just kind of focused on, like, you know, go to your appointments and da, da, da, da, da. And I remember then understanding the force that grief can be. And at that time, she was in transition of being, like, the matriarch of our family now, 'cause my grandma had passed. So she was now, you know, coming into the shoes of that.
LUSE: She was the matriarch. There's a pressure that comes with that.
RANDOLPH: Yeah. I have been told - this is a little personal, but I've been told by my relatives, in particular my cousin who was the daughter of the aunt that passed...
LUSE: Your aunt.
RANDOLPH: ...She said this to me maybe two, three years ago. She said, Da'vine, do you know that the family has been grooming you silently to be the matriarch of our family?
LUSE: Oh.
RANDOLPH: I said what?
LUSE: Oh.
RANDOLPH: I'm still dumbfounded.
LUSE: You didn't even detect it.
RANDOLPH: I said, but wouldn't it be you? She was like, no, I think I'm a nurturer. I'm a provider, a caregiver. But the matriarch? They've been quietly grooming you for that. And I had no clue.
LUSE: I wonder, like, the way that you played Mary, then the way that you inhabited this role and as you said, called upon these women in your bloodline...
RANDOLPH: Yes.
LUSE: ...Like, in your family line, almost - it seems like there was some working out in there, almost like maybe you were playing a version of you, as well.
RANDOLPH: Every role is. I'm very strategic about the roles that I pick. I don't pick stuff just to be picking it. Every role has to matter, especially with what I shared with you of, like, whose story are you going to bring from the grave and tell, right? And so yes, every single role I have done, there is a connection that I have to them.
LUSE: Coming up, why Da'vine envisions all her characters as exceptional. Stick around.
I want to touch on something I had read. You said when you were auditioning for the graduate school at the Yale School of Drama, you told them I want to be able to play Juliet from "Romeo And Juliet," despite what I look like, and you believe me.
RANDOLPH: Yeah. I said that to every school. Every single one of them. I had a remark of no or come on, that's not possible. Yale was the only school.
LUSE: Wait, they would remark that to you in the room?
RANDOLPH: Every single one was like, but look at you...
LUSE: Wow.
RANDOLPH: ...You're supposed to do these kinds of roles. So I was...
LUSE: Geez.
RANDOLPH: ...Introduced very early on in my educational phase. Not even in the professional phase...
LUSE: Yeah.
RANDOLPH: ...Typecasting and stereotypes. And that, to be honest, as it was going along, I was like, yeesh, maybe this is just, you know, what I have to accept for myself. So I'm so grateful. I'm forever grateful to that program for not only saying that, but being about it and giving me these tools.
LUSE: The thing is, as somebody who's watched many of your roles, if not all of them, it is believable. And you do transform. Like, you're different to me...
RANDOLPH: Thank you. That means a lot.
LUSE: ...Every time I see you. When, you know, you're playing Destiny, the no-nonsense pop star manager...
RANDOLPH: Yeah.
LUSE: ...You play in "The Idol." I mean, when Destiny pulled out that gun, I was like, this is real. I believe it.
RANDOLPH: There's something else, too, that I make sure of. Unless the script says otherwise, my characters are always the best at what they do. I set these women up to succeed. Unless the script says otherwise, why would I set them to be mediocre?
LUSE: Is that something you do for you or is that something you do for...
RANDOLPH: For us. For us - because you have to be careful with these scripts. They will assume mediocrity or worse. And my question to them is y'all have spent so much time in developing these characters, nothing is missing or not put in there for a reason. So if it's not listed, why would we assume that she's not put together? So when you think of Destiny, I was like, OK, boom. Based off of this script in this world, her look is her armor.
LUSE: And you had fabulous costumes that you did.
RANDOLPH: Most of it was from my closet.
LUSE: What?
RANDOLPH: That's OK if y'all don't have the time, money, or resources. I am committed to this woman. I saw it. TV moves fast. And also because I'm a specialty size, sometimes it was like, we don't have time to custom make this da-da-da. No problem.
LUSE: Right, right, right, right, right.
RANDOLPH: I got it in my closet. No problem. I went ahead and bought it. OK. Do you know what I mean? Like it is...
LUSE: Oh, I know exactly what you mean.
RANDOLPH: Because I am very passionate about this, and I care.
LUSE: You actually just blew my mind right now when you said that a lot of the clothing that you wore in "The Idol" - gorgeous clothes - a lot of that came from your closet. Something that I have noticed is that you are a fashion girl. Like, you're a fashion girl.
RANDOLPH: Thank you.
LUSE: Like, no, you're a fashion girl. You fly around the world. You sit front row at, like, Schiaparelli and all these different shows. And then with every single outfit that I see you wearing, even right now, I mean, I'm laid out on the floor. Like, literally anytime I see you (laughter)...
RANDOLPH: Thank you.
LUSE: ...It's like, I'm dead. And that's a lot of work.
RANDOLPH: It's a lot of work and a lot of money. Now, it don't have to always be a lot of money, but, you know, it's a lot of work. I'll say this, I've always - my family is female predominant. We like clothes, and we went to...
LUSE: Ooh, yes.
RANDOLPH: ...I grew up on Saturdays, after we cleaned the house, we're hitting malls - malls.
LUSE: We used to go Sunday after church - malls.
RANDOLPH: What people did on Black Friday is a regular weekend in the Randolph household.
LUSE: (Laughter).
RANDOLPH: Are you kidding? My mom and my aunt would know when the new inventory was coming in. They would know the names of the manager.
LUSE: Yes.
RANDOLPH: My mom taught me how to hide clothes.
LUSE: Yes. So that you can come back later.
RANDOLPH: Because of some higher-end places didn't always have layaway. So she was like, go hide it. We're going to come back in two weeks.
LUSE: (Laughter).
RANDOLPH: If God meant it for you, it's going to be there in two weeks. Baby, that Friday would come around and she get paid. I'd be like, let's go to the mall. I'll be praying in the car. Lord, please let that dress be there, please. But also, it was dealing with at a very early age being a specialty size. My family was always just prepared. Early on, I was learning don't, let your size limit you. Get creative and be proactive.
LUSE: You had this great quote that I had read about being a curvy Black woman playing a character who is of service to other people and that you don't have a problem with that because, as you mentioned, the role was so well written, but also because in some ways, that's how you live your life. Even just talking about how you think about your role as an actor, to be in service of the written character and bringing them to life. But you said that the problem with that is that people don't care to ask more about you - like, you as a person. What do you want people to know about you that they haven't yet asked?
RANDOLPH: I guess that I really care. Truly, it's the process of when I read a script. Who will be impacted by this? Nothing that I do is frivolous or just for a check. I can think of a thousand other ways to make money. Acting is just a tool to facilitate - I don't know if it's a love letter or whatever. But it's just a nod, if nothing else, of, like, I see you.
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LUSE: Thank you so much...
RANDOLPH: I appreciate it.
LUSE: ...Da'Vine. This was really, really a joy.
RANDOLPH: Thank you so much.
LUSE: Thanks again to Da'Vine Joy Randolph. "The Holdovers" is out now. This episode of IT'S BEEN A MINUTE was produced by...
LIAM MCBAIN, BYLINE: Liam McBain.
LUSE: This episode was edited by...
JESSICA PLACZEK, BYLINE: Jessica Placzek.
LUSE: Engineering support came from...
KO TAKASUGI-CZERNOWIN, BYLINE: Ko Takasugi-Czernowin.
LUSE: Our executive producer is...
VERALYN WILLIAMS, BYLINE: Veralyn Williams.
LUSE: Our VP of programming is...
YOLANDA SANGWENI, BYLINE: Yolanda Sangweni.
LUSE: All right. That's all for this episode of IT'S BEEN A MINUTE from NPR. I'm Brittany Luse. Talk soon.
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