< Looking to the past and future of Black Twitter

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AISHA HARRIS, HOST:

For years, Black Twitter was the watering hole. It was where we could pop off jokes about Olivia and Fitz on "Scandal." It's also where you could call out social injustices. It was both a state of mind and a state of being online. A new Hulu docuseries called "Black Twitter: A People's History" puts the massive global reach of that space into perspective. But what's changed now that it's owned by Elon Musk? I'm Aisha Harris, and today we're talking about Black Twitter on POP CULTURE HAPPY HOUR from NPR.

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HARRIS: Joining me today is NPR's TV critic Eric Deggans. Hey, Eric. Welcome back.

ERIC DEGGANS, BYLINE: Hey, what's up?

HARRIS: Great to have you. Also with us is entertainment journalist and contributor Shar Jossell. Welcome back to you, too, Shar.

SHAR JOSSELL: Hi, Aisha. Hi, Eric.

DEGGANS: Hey.

HARRIS: I feel like this is going to be a very good conversation, so I'm looking forward to it.

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HARRIS: So "Black Twitter: A People's History" is an adaptation of an oral history that was compiled by journalist Jason Parham for WIRED Magazine. The first episode is focused on the genesis of Twitter as a unique space for Black people from all over to gossip and have fun. The second episode pivots to Black Twitter's impact on the sociopolitical front, including the unrest in Ferguson and #OscarsSoWhite. And the final installment reflects more broadly on some of the drawbacks of this online community, as well as what the future holds now that the platform is owned by Elon Musk and has transformed into X. Womp (ph), womp, womp.

The series includes interviews with prominent journalists, academics and former Twitter employees. Jason Parham is interviewed for the series and serves as a producer. "Black Twitter: A People's History" was directed by Prentice Penny, who was the showrunner for "Insecure," and it's streaming on Hulu now.

So, Shar, I'm going to start with you first. When did you first actually learn about Black Twitter or at least recognize that there was such a space or thing like this that existed, maybe even before we had a name for it?

JOSSELL: Oh, my goodness. So, you know, this year actually marks 15 years of me on Twitter. And I kind of always - I think I just was thrust into Black Twitter inherently because when I got my account, when I first started tweeting, I was an undergrad, and I went to an HBCU. So, you know, at first, it started - I remember it being insular and just, like, connecting with, like, all of my classmates. And, you know, we'd be talking about campus events. There would also be campus drama, you know, that would be tweeted about and...

DEGGANS: Of course.

JOSSELL: ...Things of that nature. And then, of course, it just expanded. And so I don't think any of my Twitter experience was ever outside of Black Twitter if I'm being honest, like, from its inception.

HARRIS: Yeah.

JOSSELL: But when I realized that it was something massive and that you could really kind of, like, silo off and find different communities - had to have been maybe, like, a year in. You know, I used to live tweet award shows and things of that nature. And so it's like you find your tribe, and I found mine fairly quickly and easily from joining the platform. Yeah (laughter).

HARRIS: Yeah. Eric, what about you? You're a very online person.

DEGGANS: (Laughter) That's one way to put it, yeah, for sure.

HARRIS: (Laughter) So when did you first become aware of Black Twitter as a thing?

DEGGANS: I was probably in Black Twitter before I even knew that I was in Black Twitter (laughter).

HARRIS: Yeah.

DEGGANS: You know?

HARRIS: It's common sense, right?

DEGGANS: I mean, just, you know, having conversations about stuff. I've got you beat. I've been - as of March, I was on it for 16 years.

HARRIS: Oh, wow.

DEGGANS: My only excuse is that I was a media reporter at the time, and I was covering the emergence of Twitter, so that's why I joined. But, I mean, Black Twitter is just the collection of people that you're having conversations with. So when you're talking about, you know, the cool album, the cool concert, the cool movie, and you're talking about it with brothers and sisters, that's - you know, you're there, you know?

HARRIS: Yeah, yeah.

DEGGANS: I do remember wondering if there was - and this comes up in the docuseries - if there was, like, a URL...

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DEGGANS: ...If there was, like, a website, if there was some, you know, gateway or entrance...

HARRIS: A porthole.

DEGGANS: ...To Black Twitter.

(LAUGHTER)

HARRIS: Yeah.

DEGGANS: I remember wondering that 'cause I'm like, I keep hearing about this Black Twitter thing. And then I didn't even realize I was, like, doing it.

HARRIS: Yeah.

DEGGANS: So (laughter).

HARRIS: Yeah. Well, I think that's what's interesting about the documentary, is that it kind of makes a point to say, like, Black Twitter always existed. But...

DEGGANS: Yep.

HARRIS: ...Black Twitter as, like, a place in a real, quote-unquote, "thing" was sort of a media concoction. The media sort of took notice that all these Black people are talking to each other. What's going on here? But I do think it's interesting the way - 'cause when we think about Black Twitter, there's so many ways to define it and how there are subcultures within Black Twitter. And so everyone has their different things that they're into. It's not just about Black people being Miss Monolith (ph). It's about, you know - and the documentary talks about, like, there's Hotep Twitter. There's, like, movie Twitter, the cinema nerds. There's the hip-hop heads.

DEGGANS: Blurred Twitter (laughter).

JOSSELL: Shea Butter Twitter.

HARRIS: And so I joined Twitter - I was a latecomer. I was - it was 2010, I think.

DEGGANS: Ah, youngster.

HARRIS: I know (laughter). With the exception of Facebook, I feel like I've been slow to most new social media platforms. But yeah, Black Twitter, it's such an interesting thing. And I want to sort of talk about the doc and how it kind of tries to both talk about it on a global scale, but also on a communal, like, this is us talking to each other. And I'm curious if you feel as though - having seen all three episodes, does this succeed at making the case for why Black Twitter has just been such a driving force, both in news and in culture?

JOSSELL: I definitely think that it did. I must say I did not know what to expect going into this documentary. I remember when the trailer dropped that there were a lot of, like, people willing to just kind of toss it to the side that were on my Twitter timeline. And so I gave it a fair shot, and I must say, Aisha and Eric, there were times where I got a little emotional watching this, thinking back and reflecting on, like, you know, the quote-unquote, "good old days" and, like, wow, we really had it all, or the beloved verification badge that I once had. And I got so many jobs off of that, and so many - it just was a walk down memory lane, and I thought that they did such a fantastic job, whether it was highlighting how we would live tweet "Scandal" or, like, you know, some of the best hashtags, my personal favorite being #PaulasBestDishes. That will just go down - that needs to be in the Smithsonian in D.C. That was my favorite viral moment. And so...

HARRIS: Yeah.

JOSSELL: ...With Twitter kind of being - you know, I know that it's kind of branded as, like, the town square, but as a journalist, I really looked at it as my morning paper in a lot of different respects because I was able to follow different news sources and also some of my favorite, you know, pundits and correspondents and be in community and conversation with them. So I think that the documentary did a great job of kind of capturing the good, the bad and the indifferent of the platform.

DEGGANS: Yeah, you know, when a documentary like this comes along that purports to explain something about Black folks - you know, and I think about this when, you know, the recent documentary on Freaknik, and, you know, what have you - the first question is, is this going to be, like, superficial? Is this going to be mostly for people who don't understand us to explain us to them, or is this going to be real? You only need to watch it for, like, five minutes to understand that it's really going to be real. And even if you think you know what Black Twitter is about, you will learn a lot from watching it.

HARRIS: Yeah.

DEGGANS: Just the quotes, man, like, white folks talk about Black Twitter like it's Wakanda.

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DEGGANS: It's an amusement park for Black joy.

HARRIS: Yes.

DEGGANS: You know?

HARRIS: Yeah.

DEGGANS: I mean, I just - you know, just quote after quote that kind of summed up how I felt about it. It tries to cover a lot.

HARRIS: Yeah.

DEGGANS: And because it covers a lot, it can't get too deep on any one thing. For example, I was amazed that they got three Black folks who used to work for Twitter to talk to them.

HARRIS: Yes.

DEGGANS: I wanted a whole doc just on that.

JOSSELL: Yes.

HARRIS: Yeah.

JOSSELL: Yes.

DEGGANS: I wanted at least an episode about that, right?

HARRIS: Yeah, yeah.

DEGGANS: But, you know, they wanted to tell, like, the wide swath from the beginning to where we are now. And so they didn't really have time to really get into it. But I thought they did a great job, given how much ground they wanted to cover and given all the people that they talked to and all the different situations that they tried to portray and all the inclusiveness they tried to bring.

HARRIS: Yeah, I think it's really crucial that this is three parts, and not just they tried to do, like, maybe a two-hour or 90-minute documentary. It's not purporting to be able to tell the whole story anyway, so I think it understands what it can do and what it can't do. And I think what it does do very well is it kind of connects the dots as it goes along. And even though it doesn't necessarily go too deep and we don't spend too much time on any one thing, I do think in the sort of academic but also accessible way, it does a good job of linking all the themes in each episode into the final episode.

And also just talking about how all those years we spent discussing "Scandal" or Karens and all these people who were on the ground reporting the news and getting all of this, like, up-to-the-minute information - that led to, in many ways, what happened with the 2020 election and then, of course, January 6. I mean, at one point, someone talks about how we were all just practicing for this moment where we could kind of respond to this unprecedented moment in U.S. history...

JOSSELL: Yeah.

HARRIS: ...In unique ways. And both, like, talking about how we found comedy in these things as Black people, we are always able to make a joke out of something...

JOSSELL: Oh, yes.

HARRIS: ...Even though sometimes that's not the best.

DEGGANS: Got to.

JOSSELL: Right.

HARRIS: But we use that while also trying to track down and call out the people who - you know, we became internet sleuths. So I liked the sort of connecting of the dots there, and I thought it did a pretty good job of doing that. But I also want to ask, like, does the series perhaps give too much credit to Black Twitter for a lot of things because sometimes, I think about, you know, how many people I know who are never on Twitter in real life? I talk to them, and I could be talking about anything, and it's like, they have no idea what I'm talking about. And there's a way in which the internet really makes us feel - it can make us feel as though everyone is talking about something, but really it's not.

DEGGANS: Yeah.

HARRIS: And I wonder if there are any limitations to this documentary that you picked up on while watching it.

DEGGANS: What I would say is I felt that way when I saw the segments about Trayvon Martin. You know, I live in Florida, so I covered that story as it moved from a local story to an international story. And the first chapter of my book details in part how that happened. And although a lot of the dialogue started on Twitter and also started on radio with folks like Roland Martin and Michael Baisden...

HARRIS: Right.

DEGGANS: ...Eventually, it became a national story when national news outlets started doing pieces on it, and particularly when Trymaine Lee from - he was working for the Huffington Post at the time - did an interview with Trayvon's parents. And I understand, you know, again, they're trying to cover a lot.

But one thing the doc doesn't quite talk about is how things may start on Black Twitter, but then they - one reason why they take flight is because the wider world discovers it and begins to talk about it in a way that helps bring those - so it's not just Black Twitter that pushed, you know, prosecutors to go after George Zimmerman. It was an international furor that was sparked by international news coverage.

But Black Twitter helped ignite that spark. So they're not wrong to talk about it. It's just, you know, it might have been nice for them to sort of connect it to how Black Twitter infiltrates mainstream media and kind of blows things up.

JOSSELL: And to your point, you know, I was thinking about, like, what - how Aisha just mentioned, there are people that are not on Twitter, right? Like, Twitter can seem much louder when you're part of it versus, I imagine, when - if someone is not. However, Black Twitter, in my view, has been so instrumental in shaping narratives, creating narratives, moving the needle, whether it be social justice or pop culture, that I do think that they gave the appropriate amount of credit. I don't think that they...

HARRIS: Yeah, yeah.

JOSSELL: ...That this documentary did any sort of overreaching as far as, like, the impact and influence of Black Twitter. I can remember around a time - like, at one point, ABC was DMing me and using - asked to some of my tweets about "Scandal" in "Scandal" promos. And so I think that Black Twitter's reach is something that really, at least for a point in time - right? - 'cause I don't know where we are today, but there was definitely a chunk of time, especially when they speak about, like, Obama's presidency and election time that really galvanizes the community, that places Black Twitter at a level of influence that I don't know we've ever seen anything like that prior to having Twitter.

DEGGANS: One of the other criticisms that I've heard, though, of this doc - and I was interested in what you guys would think about this - there's been some criticism of the people who were featured in it, that maybe there was a kind of a clubby atmosphere amongst, you know, hey, here are the cool people who get to talk about Black Twitter.

HARRIS: Oh, really?

DEGGANS: And should they have made an effort to get outside of that bubble and maybe talk to people who aren't necessarily as hip or aren't necessarily as public as pundits? But I was wondering what you guys thought.

JOSSELL: My wheels are turning 'cause I don't want to be biased because I have - a good chunk of my actual friends are in this documentary and, of course, some...

DEGGANS: Right.

JOSSELL: ...Some mutuals.

DEGGANS: Yeah. We all do. We all do (laughter).

HARRIS: Yeah, I know quite a few people in here (laughter) in that documentary, too.

DEGGANS: Yep.

HARRIS: Black Twitter journalism media is very small, very small space.

JOSSELL: Yes. I guess as someone who is in and of this industry, I see why they did pick certain people that they did because it also is about name recognition...

HARRIS: Yeah.

JOSSELL: ...And it's also about promoting. You know, they couldn't just necessarily go and pick any random Tom, Dick or Harry for this documentary. So it would be impossible to satisfy everyone. No matter how the pendulum swung to that point about who was chosen, there was going to be criticism regardless.

HARRIS: Yeah.

JOSSELL: And so I don't know if that is - if that type of critique coming from whoever it's coming from is even fair because it's impossible to satisfy everyone. And I think that they did a great job at noting that we are not monolithic. And even the cast of character - like, they had people who started viral hashtag like #BlackGirlMagic. They had people who were in actual memes featured in this documentary, and so I thought that they did a good job of kind of peppering in an assortment of different flavors. They had, you know, trans people, gay people. Like, the different community representation was - I thought they did a pretty good job.

HARRIS: Yeah. I also think, like, again, this is the problem when talking about something so...

JOSSELL: Right.

HARRIS: ...Recognizable, but also just so difficult to define. Like...

JOSSELL: Yeah.

HARRIS: And obviously, this documentary is trying its best to define it, but also not be confined by that definition because...

JOSSELL: Right. Right. Right.

HARRIS: ...Again, there's no URL. There's no, like - there's no actual (laughter) place called Black Twitter. It's just...

DEGGANS: It's not Wakanda.

HARRIS: No.

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HARRIS: It's interesting to me - one of the episodes does focus on sort of, like, the shortcomings of Black Twitter, which are the shortcomings of, like, any social media platform.

JOSSELL: Yeah.

HARRIS: But I think what I at least appreciated about it was that it attempted to sort of call in Black people, and it wasn't just about us resisting racism from outside of the bubble, but also anti-Blackness, homophobia, transphobia, all of those things. And I think that was an important thing to capture here.

And I think, you know, for all of the criticisms we could hurl at it, I think it does do a pretty good job of trying to address - not just celebrate Black Twitter but also make sure that we understand that it's not a perfect place and that it's a place that, like, maybe not everyone feels welcome. We do hear a little bit from some trans folks and some queer people...

JOSSELL: Yeah.

HARRIS: ...About not feeling welcome there. But again, that - like you said with the Twitter employees, like, that could have been a whole episode. I would have...

JOSSELL: Oh, yeah.

HARRIS: ...Loved to see that.

DEGGANS: You make a great point. Like, LGBTQ+ Black Twitter...

HARRIS: Yeah.

DEGGANS: ...That could have been a whole episode, too, and I would have loved to have seen that.

HARRIS: Yeah. So, I mean, it's tricky. But what do you think the future of Black Twitter is because when this documentary was being made - and they make a point to note this in the documentary - well, here's the thing. Twitter was changing before our eyes. Elon bought it, and, like, we had to sort of pivot in some ways, and we don't know what the future is. And at least one person says, like, well, it's not really Black Twitter anymore. It's Elon Musk's X. But I don't know if I believe that because, again, we just had the Drake-Kendrick beef.

JOSSELL: Yeah.

HARRIS: We saw "Club Shay Shay" and, you know, how Katt Williams and...

JOSSELL: Oh, gosh. Yes, Mo'Nique and everybody.

HARRIS: People are still on Twitter. I'm still on Twitter, although I'm more of a lurker these days, like, and I have been following everything. You know, how does it feel different for both of you now in a post-Elon, post-X mode? Also, why are we - calling it X just feels so wrong.

DEGGANS: Well, one thing I was going to say is that Black Twitter is not just Twitter.

HARRIS: Yeah.

DEGGANS: Black Twitter is a reference to Black folks online, you know, connecting with each other. It's signifying online.

HARRIS: Yeah.

DEGGANS: We are acting out and talking about and demonstrating our culture online. So it's not just Twitter. It's Instagram. It's any area of social media where, you know, we make it our own and drench it in our culture. And so that's one reason why whatever Elon does...

JOSSELL: Yeah.

DEGGANS: ...It may hold Black Twitter back a little bit, but it's never going to stop it...

HARRIS: Yeah.

DEGGANS: ...Because we're not just Twitter. What happens with Black folks is we innovate, and then somebody else comes and buys the thing that we were innovating. And the doc talks about this very well.

HARRIS: Yeah, yeah.

DEGGANS: And that's what - you know, we made Black Twitter valuable. We made Twitter valuable. I mean, the docuseries argues that, I think, very effectively.

HARRIS: Yeah.

DEGGANS: And then someone comes and buys it in part because he seems to be annoyed by the agency and the power that we have communicating with...

JOSSELL: Yes.

DEGGANS: ...Each other on that platform.

JOSSELL: Yes.

DEGGANS: The thing that we need to do is figure out how to have this innovation on a platform that we will always control.

HARRIS: Yeah.

DEGGANS: And that's the challenge, I think, for the future of Black Twitter, which I think will always exist as long as there's Black folks signifying online.

HARRIS: Yeah, 'cause Black Bluesky is not popping off quite yet, from what I've seen.

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JOSSELL: Yes. So, to your point, Aisha, I became a bit of a lurker as well. Like, I had to mourn, as I mentioned, the verification being gone. Like, I got so many jobs as a journalist and a talking head off of verifications. Like, I was quoted in things...

HARRIS: Yeah.

JOSSELL: ...And so having that stripped was also different, and I became a lurker. But after this documentary - I kid you not, after this documentary, I started tweeting again. It made me miss Twitter so much, and, you know, I have not found a viable replacement, and that is with respect to, like, the Spills and the Threads and all of - and I'm not really - I mean, I'm an Instagram girl, but I prefer words over images personally.

DEGGANS: Thank you.

JOSSELL: The void of Twitter out of my life has not really been filled, and it became so much a part of my life over the past decade that it's kind of hard. And, you know, with Elon being in control, you know, certain protections have been lifted in the name of free speech. You can't really report people for hate speech, you know?

DEGGANS: Right.

JOSSELL: There's statistics that show that usage of the N-word with the hard E-R - I'm not talking about the colloquial A...

HARRIS: Yeah.

JOSSELL: ...OK? - the hard E-R have gone up, and the transphobia, the homophobia. Like, it is just a wild place where so many of my favorites have left.

HARRIS: Yeah.

JOSSELL: But I really do hope that we as a community can survive it because I just don't see him letting go of it anytime soon, or at least maybe he will maybe sometime next year, depending on how November goes.

DEGGANS: We thrive when they try to oppress us. Elon Musk can Elon. He going to be Elon.

HARRIS: Yeah.

DEGGANS: But we're...

HARRIS: Yeah.

DEGGANS: ...Going to do what we do, too. And I think Black Twitter is going to survive him and thrive whatever he does.

HARRIS: Yeah.

DEGGANS: But I'm not going to let them drive me off this platform. I - you know, I've got a fair number of followers, and I don't want to abandon them. So I almost view it as an act of defiance in a way by staying there and making sure my message gets out. You know?

HARRIS: Yeah.

DEGGANS: So I'm not leaving, you know?

HARRIS: I respect that. I respect that.

DEGGANS: Pry it from my cold, dead hands, Elon.

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JOSSELL: I just have not found a replacement. And so, like I said, this documentary kind of put a battery in my back, and I actually started tweeting again and, much to, you know, Eric's point, kind of leaning into my community and my timeline, just not abandon - I'm not ready to delete my account yet. So that's - I'll leave you on that.

DEGGANS: Welcome to the resistance, sister (laughter).

HARRIS: It pays, in many cases, to be first, and Twitter was first in this kind of space. And, like Eric and Shar said, pry it from some of our cold, dead hands (laughter).

JOSSELL: Eric said that. I didn't say that.

DEGGANS: Yeah, yeah, don't...

HARRIS: Sorry.

DEGGANS: Yeah, don't pull her into my drama now.

HARRIS: OK, as Eric said.

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HARRIS: Well, we want to know what you think about "Black Twitter." Find us at facebook.com/pchh. That brings us to the end of our show. Eric Deggans, Shar Jossell, thanks so much for being here. It was a pleasure.

DEGGANS: As always, really enjoyed it.

JOSSELL: Thank you, Aisha.

HARRIS: Yeah. And this episode is produced by Hafsa Fathima and edited by Mike Katzif and Jessica Reedy. Hello Come In provides our theme music. And thank you for listening to POP CULTURE HAPPY HOUR from NPR. I'm Aisha Harris, and we'll see you all tomorrow.

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