Review
Pop Culture Happy Hour
Review
Pop Culture Happy Hour
(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)
AISHA HARRIS, HOST:
A lot has happened to Megan Thee Stallion over the last couple of years - a highly publicized and traumatizing trial after being shot by a former friend, a messy breakup and a scathing feud with Nicki Minaj. On the rapper's boastful and vulnerable new album, "Megan," she confronts all of that and more. And she brings some heavy hitters like UGK and Victoria Monet along for the ride. I'm Aisha Harris, and today on NPR's POP CULTURE HAPPY HOUR, we're talking about Megan Thee Stallion's new album "Megan."
Joining me today is NPR music correspondent Sidney Madden. Hey, Sidney.
SIDNEY MADDEN, BYLINE: Ah. What's up, Aisha?
HARRIS: (Laughter) Love to hear it. Love to hear it. Also with us is culture writer and critic Shamira Ibrahim. Hey, Shamira.
SHAMIRA IBRAHIM: Real hot girl ish. Hey, Aisha.
HARRIS: (Laughter) I love it. Yes (laughter). Well, happy Megan Monday. Yes. So we're going to be talking about Megan Thee Stallion, a rapper who's, you know, very colorful with her words. So a heads up, there's going to be some explicit language and discussion of sex. But "Megan" is her third studio album, and it's coming out at a time when she's arguably never been more in demand. She's currently headlining a highly successful North American tour and, within the last year, has even popped up in a couple of movies, including the "Mean Girls" musical adaptation. Now, in January, she also earned her first No. 1 single on the Hot 100 as a solo artist for the withering diss track "Hiss."
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "HISS")
MEGAN THEE STALLION: (Rapping) Don't be mad at Megan. Mad at Megan's Law. I don't really know what the problem is, but I guarantee y'all don't want me to start.
HARRIS: Now, that song took shots at a lot of targets, including, allegedly, Nicki Minaj. And fittingly, it also kicks off the album, which finds Meg directly addressing her critics, exes and former friends on tracks like "Moody Girl."
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "MOODY GIRL")
MEGAN THEE STALLION: (Rapping) So many friends, but I still feel lonely. How come none of y'all call to check on me? Hold shit down, but nobody hold me. That's OK 'cause I'm the strong homie.
HARRIS: But the rapper also gets goofy and has a lot of fun on "Megan." There's an ode to self-pleasure, playful references to her anime nerdom. She even briefly reunites the duo UGK on the laid-back "Paper Together." Bun B and the late Pimp C contribute verses in their signature Southern drawls.
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "PAPER TOGETHER (feat. UGK)")
PIMP C: (Singing) But now I sell [expletive] on a record label. I keep my loud one on the track to break that trick and bring the money back so we can smoke big and sit on leathers, say, [expletive], you need to get my paper together.
HARRIS: I really love that song. So taken all together, "Megan" the album continues to present her persona and artistry as complex and ever-evolving. And I'm really excited to hear what you both think of this album. You know, we're recording this Monday morning right after the album has dropped. We've all had a little bit of time to sit with it, chew on it, just let it wash over us. So, Sidney, I want to start with you. You know, what are your initial impressions of "Megan" the album?
MADDEN: Ooh, OK. I mean, we got 18 tracks. We got a lot of bars and a lot of topics to get through, which you just ran down so beautifully, Aisha. But it's clear to me that the theme on this one is metamorphosis - right? - like, metamorphosis that is taking a long gestation period and is really earned rather than thrust upon. You know, I feel like we're living in the present; we're living in the Megan kingdom or queendom that we're all loving right now. But when we look back years from now on her discography as a whole, this is going to feel like a big turning point for her. Thinking about where we were a few years ago or where she was a few years ago with "Traumazine," her last album, it was clear she was rattled. She was traumatized, distracted, jilted and very much still dealing with the public fallout and all the scrutiny around the assault and the trial, right?
MADDEN: But now, coming out of this moment, like, it makes sense that the entire rollout has to do with her emerging from a cocoon or emerging from an egg and, like, a snake shedding its skin because this is a return to her original confidence, the one that got her popping and made her stand out all those years ago. It's a different type of oomph behind this - it's a - behind it. It's a different type of self-assuredness. And, you know, it's always going to be keeping her flow and her flavor rooted in the American South that raised her in Texas. But I love so much that there's so much experimentation with her creativity on this, from an ode to her going to Japan and really spending a lot of time there for the first time to her self-loving and, you know, playing that DJ for herself to linking up with R&B baddies and giving us, like, slow-burning type of hooks. I think there's so much, like you said, complexity on it, and this is going to be one that the Hotties revisit for a lot of different reasons for years to come.
HARRIS: Yeah. I want to come back to that idea of her sort of balancing both her vulnerability and her toughness and her hardness. But first, I want to hear from you, Shamira, about how this album struck you after having just, you know, a few days to listen to this.
IBRAHIM: Yeah. I've listened to it approximately 15 times now, just to, you know, get my taste buds right or whatever. But...
MADDEN: Yes, journalism.
IBRAHIM: ...You know, I'm equally...
HARRIS: (Laughter) Yes.
IBRAHIM: Exactly.
HARRIS: You're committed.
IBRAHIM: Got to do the work. Got to do the work, right? And my feelings are equally as positive as Sidney's, right? Like, I think when a lot of people think of metamorphosis, they think of something really crazy transformative, like, you're going to be a whole new shape - right? - as opposed to, I think, you know, Meg chose the snake shedding its skin for a reason, which is that, you know, when the layer comes off, you're still the same person, but there's just something different there, something a little bit more polished. And what I enjoyed about "Megan" the album is that It really is a return to the sound that made her popular. It's very rooted in the American South, like Sidney pointed out. It's very rooted in her having fun and being expressive, right? So...
HARRIS: Yeah.
IBRAHIM: ...Yes, we're going to talk about sex and having fun, or we're going to talk about sex as a shield, sex as escapism, sex as release, sex as self-empowerment and find different ways to be a specialist in the art of what they like to call [expletive] rap, right? You know, how do you find a way to really showcase how you are a fine-tuned technician and a master of that craft? I liken it to the ways that people look at someone like Pusha T, who has finely tuned his specialty of narcotic rap. Let's go with that, right?
HARRIS: Yes.
(LAUGHTER)
IBRAHIM: And, like, finely tuned it to, like, a surgical level, right?
HARRIS: Yeah.
IBRAHIM: And you just see Meg kind of returning to the well and chiseling at it and finding different ways to broach topics that she certainly touched on before but with a lot more likeness to it and a lot more ambition to it. I think that her previous project was really a vehicle for her to express a lot of her emotional frustration, right? So there was a lot of anger held up in that project that was very visceral and very real. And in this one, she's finding the freedom to play around, just try things, and trust that her fans will see her on the way through.
MADDEN: Yeah. I love how you said it's the same version, just more polished and more secure, more...
HARRIS: Right.
MADDEN: ...Self-assured 'cause that's really what growth is. You know, like, it's not this earth-shattering, like, mind-bending, crazy change. It's really just, like, walking more in your purpose. And you can talk about growth a lot, but Meg is 'bout it. Meg is being about that growth.
IBRAHIM: Right.
HARRIS: Yeah. I love you, Shamira, comparing that to Pusha T because I think one of the criticisms that's often leveled at rappers, especially, but it's also female rappers, is that they talk about the same stuff. Like, it's just - it's always about talking about your body, talking about sex and whatever. And I think that the ones who are maybe experimenting more, are trying on different personas can - I don't know, sometimes that's, I think, over-credited as being special...
IBRAHIM: Right.
HARRIS: ...Or being important, when really it's - it is about being able to just, like, know what you're good at and get better at it each time. And I'm curious as to know, like, if you had to, like, name one or two things that Megan is really good at that makes her really special, what would that be, and what are some moments where that comes out especially on this album for you?
IBRAHIM: Like, I already said it, but, like, the way that Meg talks about sex is really, really compelling. I think that there's an easy way to dismiss it like, oh, women are talking about how many men they could get or how many bags they can get. And she definitely has that, right? You know, she definitely has the track where, you know, she's like, oh, I broke his heart. Like, that's very specifically speaking to something with a fantastic GC (ph) sample, by the way. But outside of that, you hear tracks like "Moody Girl," right? And "Moody Girl" speaks to a very specific relationship with sex.
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "MOODY GIRL")
MEGAN THEE STALLION: (Rapping) Bad, like a demon. Come so quick, that's how I see men. Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, weekends. We have good times when I see them. Why do you even like me? I'm broken. Is it the way I can hold my throat open? She smoke d***, yes, bitch, I'm tokin'.
IBRAHIM: So I think just listening to that track, you hear that she's talking about sex the same way she constantly talks about sex, as people say, right? But it's really about how sex is a shield for her, right? Sex is escapism for her.
HARRIS: Yeah.
IBRAHIM: How many times have you seen people on social media, you know, rack their hands over the impacts of hook-up culture on women, right? Or how self-empowering you can be while, you know, trying to take control of your sexual agency. She's really wrestling with those questions here, and in very quirky ways, right? You know, like rapping, is it the way I can hold my throat open is both a brag and also, like, a moment of self-reflection, right?
HARRIS: Yes (laughter).
IBRAHIM: You know? And it speaks to her ability to, like, really navigate that duality. And I think that's just an example of, like, the myriad of ways she really engages with how we really live with sex as adults and as young adults and women who are really trying to figure out how to empower themselves.
MADDEN: Yeah. When you're breaking it down, I think of "Both Ain't [Expletive]", which comes right after "Broke His Heart."
IBRAHIM: Right.
MADDEN: It's like, yeah, I'm going to actually...
HARRIS: I love that song.
MADDEN: ...Marinate on the toxicity of this dynamic right now. And sometimes it's like, all right, I'ma to throw my hands up at it, I'ma lean into it. And sometimes it's like "Moody Girl," it's like, do I really, really want this, you know? I mean, what has always drawn me to Meg out of a lot of rappers - male, female, or other - is she can just paint pictures so well with her verses. Like, she's really upped her game on it, especially when it came to pulling from her lived experience in a positive recent lived experience. So I talked about it a little bit earlier. So back in February, March, Megan went over to Japan. This was the first time she was able to spend a considerable amount of time there. And it's really clear on a lot of songs on this album that she was leaning into her love of anime, her love of Japanese culture and her - what did you say before? - her nerdom...
HARRIS: Yes.
MADDEN: ...In great new ways like "Otaku Hot Girl" with the "Jujutsu Kaisen" sample. Like, are you kidding me?
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "OTAKU HOT GIRL")
MEGAN THEE STALLION: (Rapping) Ay, can't touch me like Gojo. Look good in all my photos. Just landed in Kyoto. I'm worldwide, these [expletive] local. Arigato. Arigato.
MADDEN: She's pulling strings other rappers ain't even thinking about. You know what I mean? You can see it on "BOA," which was one of the singles leading up to the album release, which I'll admit was not one of my favorites at first, but then she dropped the music video to it, and the music video, like, referenced Mortal Kombat, it referenced all of these moments of nerdom that she's never been afraid to hide about herself.
HARRIS: Yeah.
MADDEN: It creates a world. Like, she's painting pictures. She's celebrating parts of herself that shows she exists in multitudes. She's not going to be, you know, flat and she's not going to be just considered a video vixen or a sex kitten or just, like, a, quote-unquote, [expletive] rapper, right? She's showing dimensions of herself, whether she's talking about her fellatio skills or whether she's talking about her fandom of a culture that's worlds away presumably from her own, you know? Like, she's always teaching.
IBRAHIM: She literally called herself a weeb and a baddie. Like, I don't think anyone else has done that in a rap song.
HARRIS: I love especially in "Otaku Hot Girl," where she is directly addressing all the fanboys who have dismissed her anime fandom. Like, I remember - 'cause...
IBRAHIM: Right.
HARRIS: ...She has been doing this forever, and she does a lot of cosplay on her social media.
MADDEN: Yes.
HARRIS: And there'd be people in the comments being like, oh, you're basic. You're just doing this for attention or whatever. And it's like the same stuff that especially women, but Black women get all the time. It's, like, you're just - you're not really - you don't know the deep cuts. You don't know all the - you know? And I'm just like...
IBRAHIM: Right, right.
HARRIS: ...Just roll my eyes. I love it. I love that she really addresses that.
MADDEN: And sidebar, sidebar.
HARRIS: Yeah.
MADDEN: She's actually on tour right now with GloRilla. The GloRilla track on here, "Accent," another highlight. Another...
IBRAHIM: Amazing.
HARRIS: Yes.
MADDEN: Thicker than my accent. She's like, thick and thin? They made that 'cause of me. That's a turn of phrase that I created. Anyway. But on the Hot Girl Summer Tour, I had the opportunity to go to it and see her at MSG. And I'll just say...
HARRIS: Oh, nice.
MADDEN: ...I've never been part of a more, like, diverse uplifting community crowd at MSG before. There was goth girls. There was anime baddies. There was like...
IBRAHIM: Cowgirl baddies.
MADDEN: Cowgirls. Like, it was just a beautiful display of the variety of Black women and femmes showing up and shaking ass, right?
HARRIS: Yeah, yeah.
MADDEN: That's the type of world that Megan cultivates and creates. That's the type of people that she gravitates towards her because she's not afraid to show that, and she's so uplifting on it. Like, that's another reason why the song "Where My Girls At" (ph), that's going to be clearly one of the singles that they're going to push 'cause she's showing I'm a...
HARRIS: Yeah.
MADDEN: ...Girl's girl. I'm celebrating every facet, every walk of what Black womanhood or just womanhood is. And that's why this is going to be something that only just builds more.
IBRAHIM: Yeah. Like, I continue to just find different ways to be intrigued by how she brings all of her worlds together in interesting ways. So if you look at something like, you know, "Both Ain't [Expletive], " like we talked about, how it's really exploring and building on just toxic relationships. But, like, the beat behind it is a classic, you know, Meg thing, which is Teena Marie...
HARRIS: Teena Marie.
IBRAHIM: ..."Out On A Limb" flipping that sample. That's kind of how she came up.
HARRIS: Yeah.
IBRAHIM: The big mix tape that blew her up, "Tina Snow, " had so many R&B and soul samples, and she peppers that throughout the project in different ways because in this one, it's mixed with a Jersey club beat, right? And so you kind of have to figure out how to fit in the pocket, and she finds interesting pockets to say wild phrases like, that ain't my bae; that's more like my bidet.
HARRIS: (Laughter).
IBRAHIM: You know, that's very Megan, right? You know...
HARRIS: Yeah.
IBRAHIM: ...You go forward a couple of tracks, and you have a track like "Down Stairs DJ," which is also doing something similar but on a whole different level, right?
HARRIS: Yeah.
IBRAHIM: Which it's still giving you the soul sample and everything. It's also giving you the raunchy lyrics, finding a different way to talk about sex because it's talking about self-pleasure. But not in the mode of, oh, my God, I'm overly eroticizing myself, which is not a bad thing, right? But also in the mode of, I'm choosing myself first. This is how I continue to choose myself first.
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "DOWN STAIRS DJ")
MEGAN THEE STALLION: (Rapping) Ay, I love my p**** and my p**** love me. Play with her for a lil' while, then fall asleep. Asked the jeweler, can you make a crown shaped like a V? 'Cause the b**** is a queen and she need a lil' bling.
IBRAHIM: Even in that, she's using very canonically Southern flows, right?
HARRIS: Yeah.
IBRAHIM: So when you listen to how she raps on "Down Stairs DJ," she sounds so much like Paul Wall or, for a more contemporary reference, That Mexican OT, who's been very popular right now. Like, she wants people to remember no matter where she goes to, she still remains a Houston girl.
HARRIS: Yeah. I also love that she's got the strip club anthem "Spin" with Victoria Monet. I'm like...
IBRAHIM: Right.
HARRIS: ...Yes.
MADDEN: Yo.
HARRIS: And that one's got, like, a '70s kind of soul vibe to it. I'm just like...
MADDEN: Silky.
IBRAHIM: Exactly.
HARRIS: Yes, very silky.
IBRAHIM: Yes.
HARRIS: Silky.
IBRAHIM: Yes.
HARRIS: I want to ask you about sort of the chronology of this album because what I find interesting is that she starts it off with "Hiss," which we've already talked about. She didn't mention any names, but, like, people kind of figured out, and some people assumed...
IBRAHIM: Right.
HARRIS: ...They were about certain people (laughter).
IBRAHIM: Right.
HARRIS: And so you go through all these songs, but then, like, the last three songs or so are way more vulnerable, sad, introspective. You've got "Worthy," which I enjoy, but it also feels kind of like her commercial pop song. It reminds me a bit of...
IBRAHIM: Yeah.
HARRIS: ...Lizzo, in a way.
IBRAHIM: I could definitely hear this while shopping for Forever 21. Like, you know?
MADDEN: Yeah.
HARRIS: Thank you. I was like, it's giving Target in a way of...
MADDEN: Or, like, a Netflix movie, you know?
HARRIS: Sure.
IBRAHIM: Right, right.
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "WORTHY")
MEGAN THEE STALLION: (Singing) I'm too much for you, find somethin' basic. Sexy, sophisticated. I serve, but I ain't waitin', ah. I'm worthy, not worthless. I'm worthy, not worthless.
HARRIS: So you have that song, which is just about, you know, self-empowerment full blast. Then there's "Moody Girl," which we've talked about, and then "Cobra," which was a single that was already released when this came out, and that one - it's got a really kind of cool guitar lick at the end. And she's talking about being depressed and her really kind of messy and public breakup with her ex-boyfriend, the rapper Pardi.
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "COBRA")
MEGAN THEE STALLION: (Rapping) Breakin' down and I had the whole world watchin', but the worst part is really who watched me. Every night I cried, I almost died and nobody close tried to stop it. Long as everybody gettin' paid, right? Everything'll be OK, right? I'm winnin', so nobody trippin'. Bet if I ever fall off, everybody go missin'.
HARRIS: So you're ending with these sort of, like, three very introspective songs, and I kind of didn't know what to make of it 'cause it's, like, usually, you would think that you would start with sort of the sad and introspective and then get to the like, I've hiked myself up. But, like, what do you make of the fact that it ends sort of on a very, I'm depressed, this is how I feel and ending on that note?
IBRAHIM: It would be nice for her to give a triumphant story to everyone to say, look at what I took on the last four years, and I've come out, and I'm stronger than ever, and I'm doing better than ever, and every day is better than the last. But I don't think that's her reality. And I think she's kind of been honest about that, right? Where she's figured out better ways to take care of herself. She's figured out a better relationship with herself and her body. You know, she's focused on fitness, focused on wellness. But she still has low points of things that she's very much dealing with. Just maybe less than a month ago, she had to deal with a viral campaign of targeted nonconsensual AI video implying that she was having sex on tape, right?
HARRIS: Yeah.
IBRAHIM: She continues to deal with misogynist attacks and misogynist critiques to this day, even though, like we've mentioned, she's selling out a fabulous tour, has a great new album and has a great set of opportunities lined up for her. So I think her acknowledging that part is really saying, I'm still dealing with self-doubt. I'm still dealing with recovering from everything I've dealt with. I am doing better. I do know how to continue to get better, but this journey is not over for me. And I think that's as honest as she can get about it for right now.
MADDEN: Plus 10,000. I think so much of, again, what draws fans to Meg is she's really real. Like, she's really a real person, and she doesn't hide that, you know? And to Shamira's point, there are ups and downs. And like I said, the theme may be triumph, but it's hard-earned. It's hard-won, and it's still going to be a lifelong battle to deal with scars that came from these moments in her life, you know? People talk about, like, you know, breaking glass ceilings, but, like, nobody talks about the scars of the shattered glass, you know? She's on the other side, and she's absolutely winning at life at it. But, yeah, these are going to be emotions and trauma she will continue to deal with for the rest of her life. So I think it makes sense that it's an ender on it, like a reminder.
HARRIS: Yeah. Well, we're really digging this album. We want to know what you think about Megan Thee Stallion's album "Megan." Find us at facebook.com/pchh. And that brings us to the end of our show. Sidney Madden, Shamira Ibrahim, I don't know who else would have been more perfect for this conversation, so thank you so much for being here.
IBRAHIM: Thank you both.
MADDEN: Thank you.
HARRIS: This episode was produced by Rommel Wood and Mike Katzif and edited by Jessica Reedy. Hello Come In provides our theme music. Thank you for listening to POP CULTURE HAPPY HOUR from NPR. I'm Aisha Harris, and we'll see you all tomorrow. (Vocalizing).
MADDEN: Yes. Yes, Aisha.
HARRIS: You don't have to put that in, but, like...
MADDEN: No, keep that, keep that.
IBRAHIM: Keep it. Keep it. Keep it.
HARRIS: (Laughter).
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