< She missed out on 'Mean Girls' 20 years ago — but Busy Philipps got a second chance

TERRY GROSS, HOST:

This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Our guest, actor Busy Philipps, co-stars in the series "Girls5eva," which begins its third season next month on Netflix. It's just one of the Tina Fey projects Philipps has premiering this year. She's also in the new movie musical version of the 2004 film "Mean Girls." Busy Philipps spoke with Fresh Air's Ann Marie Baldonado. Here's Ann Marie.

ANN MARIE BALDONADO, BYLINE: Busy Philipps has been involved in projects lousy with teenagers, dating back to her breakout role on the critically acclaimed but canceled show, "Freaks And Geeks." She was 19, playing tough girl Kim Kelly. Since then, she starred in "Dawson's Creek," "Cougar Town" and "Vice Principals." She wins people over with her comedic work on TV shows and movies, but she also does it with her honest, straightforward approach to talking directly to her fans. She does it through social media, her podcasts and her writing. In her best-selling memoir, "This Will Only Hurt A Little," she writes about her childhood and her career, including candid, hilarious and also heartbreaking stories about the rejection and misogyny she's dealt with in Hollywood and in the rest of her life.

Before we talk about all of that, let's hear her in her latest film, "Mean Girls," which is the movie version of the musical based on the 2004 movie written by and starring Tina Fey. All versions of "Mean Girls" are based on the nonfiction book "Queen Bees And Wannabes," about the complicated and cruel power dynamics teen girls live with. Busy Philipps plays the mother of the queen bee, Regina George. In this scene, the group of popular girls, which includes Regina, her friends, and the new girl, Cady, are in Regina's room. Mrs. George comes in and tries to make nice with the girls.

(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "MEAN GIRLS")

BUSY PHILIPPS: (As Mrs. George) Oh, Regina. You're never going to believe what I found in your closet this morning.

RENEE RAPP: (As Regina George) Why were you in my closet?

PHILIPPS: (As Mrs. George) Because I'm doing that Japanese organizing thing where you take a little nap in the closet. I found your burn book. Cady, this is just, like, the funniest thing that the girls used to do.

RAPP: (As Regina George) Please leave.

PHILIPPS: (As Mrs. George) You got it, baby. But, girls, I'm going to be right downstairs. If you need to talk to me about anything - I mean it - deep stuff or boy troubles or blackheads or alcohol poisoning, you know I have been through it all. Honey, I am not a regular mom. I'm @coooooolmom with six O's. #AgingHotly, hashtag...

RAPP: (As Regina George) Get out.

PHILIPPS: (As Mrs. George) OK. Girls, just have so much fun. Remember; these are the best days of your life. It does not get better.

BALDONADO: Busy Philipps, welcome to FRESH AIR.

PHILIPPS: Oh, thanks so much for having me. What a dream.

BALDONADO: What did the original movie "Mean Girls" mean to you when it came out in 2004?

PHILIPPS: Oh, God. Just that I was jealous that I wasn't in it.

BALDONADO: (Laughter).

PHILIPPS: You know, to be honest, just another job I didn't get.

BALDONADO: Oh, gosh.

PHILIPPS: No. I loved the original, but I was salty that I wasn't - that I couldn't even audition for it 'cause we were filming - I was filming "White Chicks," and - or I'd already gotten the part for "White Chicks." The filming was overlapping. And no shade to "White Chicks," although all shade to "White Chicks," because at the time, when it - when "White Chicks" came out, it was, like, universally panned. People hated it. It was, like, honestly embarrassing that I was in it in the industry and the world at large. Now, perspective is everything, and I am very happy to say that over the years, I realized what an actual cult classic "White Chicks" has become, and I'm so proud that I was in that ridiculous movie in 2004.

BALDONADO: Did you have any hesitation about doing this role, given how classic the Amy Poehler cool mom scene is in the original movie?

PHILIPPS: The truth of the matter is, I have now been working with Tina Fey and the Little Stranger company, her company, her production company, for the last seven or so years pretty consistently. And so when Tina calls and says to me, I have a job for you, who the heck am I to say, oh, you know what? No, thanks. That's just - those are shoes I don't want to fill.

BALDONADO: I think what's so funny and sad about the Mrs. George character in the original movie is that she's trying so hard to be one of the girls and sort of relive her high school through her daughter's, and her daughter hates it. Also, her daughter is terrible to her and to the other girls, and maybe that has to do with Mrs. George, but I wonder what you think about that original character and the way you see her, you know, in the new movie, like, that, like, being so thirsty, I guess.

PHILIPPS: You know, it's really interesting because when Tina wrote the original "Mean Girls" and Amy was starring as Mrs. George in it, neither one of them - I don't even know if Tina had her eldest daughter yet.

BALDONADO: That's right.

PHILIPPS: I don't know. I mean, I know for a fact Amy wasn't a mom yet. But what was so interesting to me was just how much I related to Mrs. George in this moment. As, you know, I - I'm like, I'm a young mom, I am cool. And people think I'm cool. By the way, I am famous. People think I'm cool. But you are just never cool to your kids, ever. As much as you want it. You know, in the musical - in the original musical, Mrs. George just has one little snippet of a song, and it's a reprise from the song that Gretchen sings, "What's Wrong With Me?" And to me, watching that on the stage, in the theater, with my own kids next to me was when I just cried. And I feel like I tried to - I tried the best I could to sort of imbue the character with that thing of, like, she's been waiting her whole life to have girlfriends who love her, and she has these girls around her, and she's still on the outside looking in, and she's, like, even as a mom, what's wrong with me? I just think it's so deeply relatable and sad and, like, it just kind of breaks your heart.

BALDONADO: I know Tina Fey asked you to do this part in "Mean Girls," and this is now a few projects that you've worked on with Tina, including your talk show "Busy Tonight" and the comedy "Girls5eva." What's it like working with her on projects, and what does her career mean to you? Because she definitely, like, came up on "SNL," you know, a very male-dominated comedy structure. But she also famously works with a lot of her female comedian friends.

PHILIPPS: Well, look. I don't know how I got so lucky, except that I'll take it. And I'm so glad. I'm so grateful for it, because I did spend so much of my early career wanting to be in the boy's club of comedy and always feeling like I don't understand why I'm not. I don't understand why I don't get, I don't know, I just don't get it. Why am I not in this club, you know? And even to the - you know, the point of, like, Judd and working with those guys again and again for a while, when I was in my early 20s, I do remember feeling like, well, wait. Why can't - why am I not the girl in "Knocked Up"? Or, you know, like, what's happening here? And then to have Tina come in - and I was such a huge, huge fan of hers. Of course, like, her career meant everything to me. Like, there was nothing better than "30 Rock," I mean, to me. I just - it made me laugh so hard. And I didn't understand how there were so many jokes. Like, it was so dense. It's so dense. I mean, that's why sometimes on "Girls5eva," I'm like, I don't even know what this is, but I'm going to say it because I assume it's a joke, you know?

BALDONADO: Yeah (laughter).

PHILIPPS: Like, I don't know what it is. But anyway, so Tina, you know, to get to work with her - because now I've gotten to work with her in so many different capacities, both, you know, as a producer who's pitching me jokes for my show, you know, helping us break it and figure out what it is, and then, giving me - giving me - handing me these amazing roles.

BALDONADO: Well, I want to ask you about "Girls5eva," which comes back for its third season in March, this time on Netflix. Let's hear a scene from it, from the pilot. The group hasn't seen each other in years, and they're living their lives separately. But a hip-hop artist has used an old song of theirs, their main hit, as a sample. And so their music is being heard again. And they get a little bit of money for it. This scene begins with a clip from the past where your character, Summer, introduced herself. And then the scene cuts to where they are now. And Sara Bareilles' character is visiting your character, Summer, for the first time in years. Let's listen.

(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "GIRLS5EVA")

PHILIPPS: (As Summer) I'm Summer, and my media trainer said to repeat the question in my answer, so why don't you introduce yourself, Summer? Thanks, Carson. I'm Summer. Oh, my God. Dawn? Shut up. I thought that was you on my Nest cams.

SARA BAREILLES: (As Dawn) Summer, you're home.

PHILIPPS: (As Summer) Always. Oh, I just heard us during Peloton. We are back. What are we going to do? You know, Carnival has a '90s-themed cruise that goes around the Pacific garbage patch.

BAREILLES: (As Dawn) No, no, no, no, no, I just have your licensing check. It expires on Friday, so - oh, and I brought you this baby gift that I've had for you for, like, 5eva.

PHILIPPS: (As Summer) That is so sweet. Thank you. Oh, come. You have to meet Stevia. But don't touch her. She's not vaccinated.

PENELOPE RICHMOND: (As Stevia) Oh, my God. You guys...

(LAUGHTER)

BALDONADO: That's a scene from the first episode of "Girls5eva." And I think what's great about the show is how it pokes fun at the music industry or entertainment, and how the industry treats both women in the past, as well as in the current day. Can you share any of the crazy things that were said to you or things that were asked of you?

PHILIPPS: Oh, God, so many things were asked of me. I mean, I've been asked to lose weight, like, a billion times. When have I not been asked to lose weight? Well, Tina didn't ask me to lose weight. And Paul Feig...

BALDONADO: Paul - yeah.

PHILIPPS: ...Didn't ask me to lose weight. But after that, forget it. It was just a constant stream of losing weight - minus "White Chicks," but in the script, it legitimately says their fat friend. That's how my character is described. I was a size eight at the time, OK? Their fat friend, that's - OK. Anyway, but yeah, like, I was asked - I was told at one point to consider removing - having all of my moles removed on my neck and my face and my body. And I was like, I don't understand that. I think it'll just be really horrific-looking scars. My dad's had some moles removed for biopsies. It doesn't look great, guys, I'm not going to lie.

I was told by a head of casting at a studio that I wasn't going to have any kind of film career unless I did Maxim, FHM, Stuff magazine. One of the - like, at the time, it was, you know, these magazines. And the casting - the head of casting was like, I get a call from the executive when it comes - when the Maxim Hot 100 comes out. And they've circled the girls that they want to put in movies. And you're not going to be circled, you're not going to be on that list unless you do it.

BALDONADO: My guest is actor Busy Philipps. Her TV shows include "Freaks And Geeks," "Cougar Town," "Vice Principals" and "Dawson's Creek." Her memoir, "This Will Only Hurt A Little," is a New York Times bestseller. She co-hosts the podcast "Busy Philipps Is Doing Her Best." She has a new season of her TV show, "Girls5eva," premiering in March. And she recently starred in the movie musical "Mean Girls," which just became available online. More after a break. This is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF AMY RIGBY SONG, "PLAYING PITTSBURGH")

BALDONADO: This is FRESH AIR. I'm Ann Marie Baldonado, back with actor Busy Philipps. She stars in the TV comedy "Girls5eva," which premieres its third season next month on Netflix. She recently starred in the movie musical "Mean Girls." Plus, she co-hosts the podcast "Busy Philipps Is Doing Her Best."

Now, I want to ask you about "Freaks And Geeks," which was your first big TV show. It was on TV from 1999 to 2000. It was a show by Judd Apatow and Paul Feig, and it launched a lot of actors' careers. I wanted to play a scene from the pilot, and I believe this might have been the scene that you did when you were auditioning for the role. You play Kim Kelly, a tough girl who has no trouble making fun of people at school and is skeptical of the main character, Lindsay. And she's mean to her, too. In this scene, though, you're in the hallway at school and you're making fun of Sam Weir, who's the younger brother played by John Francis Daley.

(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "FREAKS AND GEEKS")

PHILIPPS: (As Kim Kelly) Hey, geek. You got a problem?

JOHN FRANCIS DALEY: (As Sam Weir) Oh, no. I was just looking at a friend of mine.

PHILIPPS: (As Kim Kelly) Are you telling me that I look like a friend of yours?

STACY HOGUE: (As Karen Scarfolli) Hey, Kim. I think he likes you.

PHILIPPS: (As Kim Kelly) Is that true? Do you like me? Do you love me?

DALEY: (As Sam Weir) I like you like a friend.

PHILIPPS: (As Kim Kelly) I don't think so. I think you like me like me. I think you want to kiss me. Do you want to kiss me?

DALEY: (As Sam Weir) I don't know.

PHILIPPS: (As Kim Kelly) Come on - just one little kiss. I'll be your girlfriend. In your dreams, geek.

Is that my voice?

BALDONADO: That's a scene from the first episode of the show "Freaks And Geeks." Now, you've said, you know, the character, Kim - she's had a difficult family life, and she was tough and aggressive. And maybe that was because that's what she had experienced herself growing up. And I'm just wondering what you related to most about Kim Kelly because you really capture her. You do such a good job with her.

PHILIPPS: I think that so much of what I was doing was just very intuitive. And, yeah, there was a girl in my high school that, when I read the character, reminded me a little bit of Kim, and she scared me so much. And also, like, the anger - I related so deeply to the anger. And I had so much of it. At 19, I had so much of it. I mean, I still have so much of it. You know, I have more - like, still, I'm, like, meditating and doing my therapy and, like, taking my shoes off and trying to ground myself. Like, I do all the things, you know what I mean?

Like, but I do have that thing, and it comes from a lot of different places, but I think that - yeah, for Kim, it really comes out of just feeling misunderstood and not having, you know, parents at home who trusted her. But I also, like, really related to Kim in terms of being a person who was smart, but that didn't necessarily translate to the subjects that were being taught in school in the ways that they were teaching it in school, in a, you know, just very basic, public school system. So, you know, I related to that a lot.

BALDONADO: "Freaks And Geeks" was a show about teenagers. And you were a teenager when you started it, as were some of the other stars on the show. Can you describe what that set was like? You know, and that's, of course, over 20 years ago.

PHILIPPS: I was 19 when I did the pilot of "Freaks And Geeks." It's interesting. I mean, the set was incredible. Everyone was really young. Judd Apatow and Paul Feig and Jake Kasdan were really at the, you know, they were the - at the helm. And they were so respectful of all of us kids as being, like, valid and having a voice in what we were doing and, like, I didn't understand that that's not how television worked, or movies or entertainment, for that matter, because it felt so collaborative. And yeah, like you said, I mean, some of the kids, Martin Starr and Samm Levine and John Francis Daley, I mean, they were in - they were 14, 15, 16. Seth was, I think, 17 when we started. Jason and I are the same age, and James Franco is a little bit older, and Linda was, like, the oldest.

But, you know, we had no right to be collaborating with these people (laughter). No, I'm not - I'm just saying that it's not the norm. Like, the way that they made that show was with such heart and such love for the characters, and they really extended that to us in a way that was so - I know now - rare and so generous and so, you know, if one of us was like, I don't know if - I don't know how to say this or this line is - well, how would you say it? How would Kim - how would - just do it. Do it how you would do it. To your point and your question and how things have changed, like, "Freaks And Geeks" is not the barometer for how the industry was at...

BALDONADO: Right.

PHILIPPS: ...The time. I can tell you about auditions where I would be told by my agents, well, you know, this executive really likes boobs, so if you could wear a push-up bra, that would be great. Or, you know, like, I mean, there were a million different examples of the blatant misogyny and insanity and also, like, just the sort of this is the way it is, is there's - never going to change. The best you can do is try to assimilate yourself to this culture in any way that you can and, you know, hope for the best because you are replaceable. So let's not make waves, you know, in any major way. But as far as, like, the way that they treated us on set, it was very respectful.

BALDONADO: Busy Philipps co-stars in the new film "Mean Girls," which is now available online. And her TV show "Girls5eva," returns for a third season next month on Netflix. I'm Ann Marie Baldonado, and this is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF DEEP BLUE ORGAN TRIO'S "TELL ME SOMETHING GOOD")

BALDONADO: This is FRESH AIR. I'm Ann Marie Baldonado, back with actor Busy Philipps. She stars in the new musical film version of "Mean Girls," which is based on the original from 2004. The new season of her TV show "Girls5eva" returns in March. The show is about a girl group that had a hit in the early 2000s and is trying to make a comeback after being out of the business for decades. The show pokes fun at how sexist the entertainment industry can be to both younger and older women. Busy Philipps is loved by her fans not only because she's always funny but because she's also honest about her life and her career, talking about it all on her podcast, "Busy Philipps Is Doing Her Best," and writing about it in her book, the bestselling memoir "This Will Only Hurt A Little." Her first big role was in the critically acclaimed show "Freaks And Geeks," which premiered in 1999 but only ran for a season before it was canceled.

In your memoir, "This Will Only Hurt A Little," which was published in 2018, you write about, you know, how grateful you are for this series but that, you know, it wasn't without, like, some bad experiences. And one reason why you felt that way is because on almost all sets, boys and girls were treated differently. For example, James Franco was kind of revered on set. And at one point you have a physical altercation with him, and it didn't seem like they completely took care of you. For those who don't know the story that we're referring to, there was a scene where you were...

PHILIPPS: In one - OK, so the one sentence is that there was this - we were kids. James and I had a hard time working together. But there was one particular day. There was a scene we were doing where we get, like, pelted with water balloons, and then we run after a car. And we're mad, and we're going to go do something. We're going to go get the guys or whatever and from the other school. And the director had given me a note. My line was, damn it, Daniel. Do something. And then he's like, what do you want me to do? Like, he screams at me 'cause the characters - the two characters, Kim and Daniel, had this very sort of, like, intense, like, borderline kind of abusive language, like, yelling at each other a lot and being kind of mean to each other. And - but anyways, the director gave me a direction that - when I said the line, to, like, smack him with the back of my hand on the chest like, damn it, Daniel. Do something. You know like how you would kind of do that. Like, there - and so we get hit by the water balloon, turn around. I say, damn it, Daniel; do something, and hit him on the chest. And then James Franco, the actor, grabbed me and screamed in my face like, don't you ever F-ing touch me, and then threw me to the ground, like, with such force that it, like, really knocked the wind out of me. Like, I was, like, very - it was - and they cut. And people, like, ran over, and they were like, what's going on? This is - that was crazy. What was that? Did you - what? What's happening? You know, and I had to go take a minute. I was very shaken up. The director came and was like, can you do one more? I still don't have it. And I was like, yeah, I guess. And so then we went back and did it again. I did not do the hitting thing. He didn't say a thing to me. And then I went into Linda Cardellini's trailer and, like, sobbed hysterically.

BALDONADO: And it was her who told you to say something, right?

PHILIPPS: Yeah. She - there were - yeah. And I can't remember exactly why, but there were - but, like, Paul and Judd had to be in some other meeting that - at that - it was, like, just, like, a confluence of circumstances. You know what I mean? Like, they weren't there on set in that moment. It was rough.

BALDONADO: Well, were you scared at all about describing some of your experiences and using names?

PHILIPPS: No. I mean, look. Truly, it's - I actually think this is interesting. In retrospect, I wish I'd known a few things writing this book. So if you are out there and you're an actress who's writing a memoir, let me fill you in. No. 1, I should have sent copies early to everybody involved. And I didn't know that was a thing. And I guess I wish that the people that had done books before, like my agent, my book agent at the time or my editor at the time had suggested that - like, manuscripts, you know, galleys or whatever - just so that they could have been prepared 'cause not that I would have even changed it. But I do think that there's something to the surprise of a situation. And I think that person who was really pissed at me, someone involved closely to the show - and it wasn't James Franco or any, you know - was responding to more - like, hadn't even read it yet, was - it was more, like, the press of it. Oh, and that's the second thing I want to say about it - that it wasn't lost on me that I write this entire book about my experience being a woman...

BALDONADO: Right.

PHILIPPS: ...In this industry and all of the headlines the week before the book came out were about James Franco. Like, barely any of them even had my name in it.

BALDONADO: In your memoir, you say this thing about acting that I would like you to read.

PHILIPPS: OK. All right. I'm going to read this.

BALDONADO: OK.

PHILIPPS: OK. (Reading) Here's the thing. It's not easy to be a woman in this business. There will always be jokes about your body. There will always be guys who steal your best ideas and pass them off as their own. There will always be actors who push you to the ground. There will always be networks that ask you to lose weight. There will always be jobs you will not get based on your looks, and the men will continue to support one another and show up for one another and hire one another. But if you want to stick around, girl, you better be damn sure you smile when they ask and wear a low-cut top to your network test and lose the weight and let them take credit for your words because you are expendable.

BALDONADO: You talk about how you always felt like you wanted to be seen. And this was a way to do so. But why? Why put yourself into this situation where you're always being evaluated and put through the ringer like this?

PHILIPPS: Well, I guess I suppose because, like everything, it's a slow burn. You just, like, want something so badly, you know? I love playing characters. Even if I'm just given a small, little - you know, I'm in the "Mean Girls" movie for - I don't know - 10 minutes. I have no idea - not that long. But I love figuring out what makes that character kind of heartbreaking, too. And how can I show that in just these few lines in these couple scenes? And I don't know. How can we - how can I show the full range of personhood and these characters that I would play sometimes that would be kind of two-dimensional on the page. And they wanted a thing. They want a dumb blonde or they want a whatever. And, yeah, I just loved it. So I was sort of willing, and I was also told it was the price of admission. If someone tells you what the price of admission is for your dream, you get to say, like, OK, I guess if that's the price of admission, OK. I can do it. I'm, like, strong enough. I'm, like, confident enough in myself that I can handle the jabs. I can handle the jokes. By the way, it's nothing that's not happening in every other industry. So, OK, I can do this, you know? And it does wear on you. It wears on all of us. Of course. You find out that, like, the guy you're working with who works, you know, two days a week, and you're there every single day is making four times what you are an episode, like, yeah, sucks.

BALDONADO: Now, you grew up in Arizona. You had been telling your mom that you wanted to get an agent ever since you were in third grade. What made you so sure? Like, what did you love about saying that you wanted to be an actor?

PHILIPPS: Well, you know, I had a lisp when I was little. I was like Cindy Brady, which is a reference I don't know if people - you never know. And when I say that now, people are like, huh?

BALDONADO: Our listeners are older.

PHILIPPS: I know. That's true. That is true. But in case you're not. I couldn't say my R's or my TH's or my S's in first grade and second grade. And then I got a speech therapist, and I would get, like, a penny every time I would say, you know, like, it wasn't a lot of money, guys, that I was getting for saying my words correctly. It didn't motivate me. But there was a talent show, and my mom thought - I was, like, always performing, you know, my whole life. And so my mom kind of convinced me to do this poem in the talent show, which had a lot of the aforementioned letters that were hard for me, but I worked so hard on it 'cause I wanted to do really well, and I wanted to make people laugh. It was, like, a silly poem. And I did it, and it felt so good. And then I was like, oh, this is the thing. Everybody has to look at me. And if I do it right, they're going to laugh, and they're going to clap, and everybody's going to be looking at me. So that kind of started it.

BALDONADO: Busy Philipps, it's been so great to talk to you. Thank you so much.

PHILIPPS: Thank you so much, and I'm sorry I talk so much.

GROSS: Busy Philipps spoke with FRESH AIR's Ann Marie Baldonado. Philipps stars in the TV series "Girls5eva," which returns for its third season in March. She also stars in the new musical film adaptation of "Mean Girls," which is now available for streaming. Coming up, Ken Tucker reviews a new solo album from musician and singer Mary Timony, who was on Rolling Stone's list last year of the greatest guitarists of all time. This is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF ROSSELA COSENTINO SONG, "YOU KNOW I'M NO GOOD")

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