Am I really the only person that believes one can acknowledge the motivations of the people of the past but doing so doesn’t condone or excuse what was done?
It's ongoing.
Please make your case.
"The world is full of idiots and I am but one of them."
10-30-1991 Toronto, Toronto 1 & 2 2016, Toronto 2022
Am I really the only person that believes one can acknowledge the motivations of the people of the past but doing so doesn’t condone or excuse what was done?
It's ongoing.
Please make your case.
There are class actions like abortion/sterilization and started opioid crisis and indigenous overrepresentation.
Just now starting to dish out the 23 billion dollars for millenial foster care kids they took and assimilated or denied/delayed social services.
I'm a little tired to go into it but I'm sure you could research these first nation lawsuits to start.
There's a thread for this one it doesn't have to be in the Canadian politics.
I'm pretty sure all the people that are in jail that are indigenous aren't thriving and repopulating and the fastest growing group of incarcerated people are young FNIM girls
Am I really the only person that believes one can acknowledge the motivations of the people of the past but doing so doesn’t condone or excuse what was done?
Thank you for your insight, and I do need to admit that there is more I should learn on this issue. You’re absolutely right that it shouldn’t fall on you to inform the rest of us, but I will beg for some patience in this regard as I was educated in a time when the mistreatment of First Nations was only covered minimally (we learned about how treaties weren’t respected but not the residential schools, some of which were still operating at the time). I do follow the news fairly closely so I might call myself somewhat informed (which obviously leaves much room for improvement).
Unfortunately I still have to disagree with your view that a genocide is ongoing. Outside of the systematic racism that you mentioned, virtually everything else are acts of the past and not currently happening. If I examine government policy, your culture is frequently celebrated and acknowledged and there are (as I understand it) many programs meant to support the First Nations people (effectiveness obviously open for discussion).
More generally I hope I have never denied that abuses and discrimination have been a large part of the First Nations story and don’t deny that there is still a debt that needs to be paid by Canada. What I would love to see is the involved parties seriously working towards a lasting solution instead of the random patchwork of measures that I see.
A large part of my disagreement stems from 2 factors: the selective readings of history and the liberal use of the word genocide. As I discovered the people of the past are being accused of something that hadn’t yet been conceived (for right or wrong) since the word genocide was created until 1944. I wouldn’t feel it fair if the people of the future judge me guilty of a crime that was in fact common practice for the time I lived in.
"The world is full of idiots and I am but one of them."
10-30-1991 Toronto, Toronto 1 & 2 2016, Toronto 2022
There's a thread for this one it doesn't have to be in the Canadian politics.
I'm pretty sure all the people that are in jail that are indigenous aren't thriving and repopulating and the fastest growing group of incarcerated people are young FNIM girls
For what it's worth I have followed that thread though I haven't commented and have learned thanks to that thread.
"The world is full of idiots and I am but one of them."
10-30-1991 Toronto, Toronto 1 & 2 2016, Toronto 2022
Along the lines of Canada and it's treatment of Indigenous peoples.... we're again left with two leaders who are either virtue signaling liars (Trudeau) or robotic dooshbags (Polievre).
Also interesting is the contrast of two leaders / parties and their solutions to problems using a socialist model (Trudeau) and a capitalist model (Polievre). To that point, I'm not a believer in either solution as both don't seem to work historically.
Polievre in this conference remarkably suggests that what is going to help Indigenous people is a better economy and less government red tape... which of course is not defined in any way shape or form. This is the same argument he makes for solving housing. What he failed to comment on and what he got called out for ... is his lack of recognizing our past. And I mean.... truly if he suggests that the solution is that resources taken or used on Indigenous land goes back into their communities.... well.... first I don't believe him and second... doesn't that kind of mean our entire country? To me it was completely tone deaf... and will likely set him up for failure should he be elected.
To break it down into crayons... to me he sounded like he was saying: 'Don't look to us to solve your problems... we're going to give you the resources to solve your own problems..' Meanwhile.. the problem is that the government smashed the shit out of their home, and instead of lending a hand to rebuild.... they just provide a bunch of shovels and mortar and say 'you're welcome.'
Toronto 2000
Buffalo, Phoenix, Toronto 2003
Boston I&II 2004
Kitchener, Hamilton, London, Montreal, Ottawa, Toronto 2005
Toronto I&II, Las Vegas 2006
Chicago Lollapalooza 2007
Toronto, Seattle I&II, Vancouver, Philly I,II,III,IV 2009
Cleveland, Buffalo 2010
Toronto I&II 2011
Buffalo 2013 Toronto I&II 2016 10C: 220xxx
I don’t know if this is pointless or silly but hoping we can have a moment of unity getting behind our Prime Minister’s statement on yesterday’s tragedy in the US and we can show our solidarity with our southern neighbours and friends.
"The world is full of idiots and I am but one of them."
10-30-1991 Toronto, Toronto 1 & 2 2016, Toronto 2022
Unfortunately I still have to disagree with your view that a genocide is ongoing. Outside of the systematic racism that you mentioned, virtually everything else are acts of the past and not currently happening.
The suit for the opioid class action because of the disproportionate Indigenous people that are killed compared to Canadians hasn't even been created yet. It's definitely not an act of the past. Same goes for the class action that's in the process of being certified about sterilization and forced abortion. This is the present. And yes, women are still being killed. Remember how much fuss there was about having to spend money to dig them out of the garbage dump?
Therefore, ongoing.
The number of incarcerated Indigenous people are higher than other Canadians - same thing about kids being taken from their families. The latter is presently being addressed with new indigenous government agency over our children and paying off 40 grand each for those who suffered from Indigenous Service Canada removing kids off reserve, etc (class action grew to include off reserve and other poor/delayed/non-existent social services).
You are right the residential schools were in the past. Canada was hoping to be a leader on human rights. I know our BC educational system has new standards (standard 19) for teachers to incorporate FNIM teachings. One out of 10 Indigenous people will receive a tertiary education compared to four of 10 of their Canadian peers.
Whether you want to call this genocide or not, it's ongoing.
I didn't even bring up our healthcare system. Many of those workers are learning to treat us better. My sister got hit on her bike by a car yesterday. The ambulance didn't take her to the hospital. My mom had to take her (bloodied head injury, bruises, and broken collarbone) to the hospital. An Indigenous patient navigator (a job which I once applied for) had to get the nurse to take action, make diagnostic orders, so that might sister would receive proper treatment.
I have personal anecdotes within my immediate family for each one of these atrocities. In the past, my ass.
I’m not going to argue it any further at the moment (I do hear what you’re saying fwiw) but I want to wish your sister a full recovery, I hope it wasn’t an intentional hit (was a genuine accident as dumb as that may sound, apologies) in addition to what you endured at the hospital.
"The world is full of idiots and I am but one of them."
10-30-1991 Toronto, Toronto 1 & 2 2016, Toronto 2022
Yeah no worries it was just a bit much the suggestion that it could have been a hit. Like who would go around trying to kill someone specifically by mowing them down with the car? I don't think that's the way murders or intimate murders take place typically? Unless your comment was sarcasm due to my experience that there's a lot of insidious ways that Indigenous people's have a hard times surviving compared to Canadians? Yeah we could just let it go.
Yeah no worries it was just a bit much the suggestion that it could have been a hit. Like who would go around trying to kill someone specifically by mowing them down with the car? I don't think that's the way murders or intimate murders take place typically? Unless your comment was sarcasm due to my experience that there's a lot of insidious ways that Indigenous people's have a hard times surviving compared to Canadians? Yeah we could just let it go.
I’ll just say there was no sarcasm meant, only concern, I apologize again for my poor wording. This is an excuse not a reason but I was really stoned at the time I wrote it.
Again, I truly hope your sister recovers fully.
"The world is full of idiots and I am but one of them."
10-30-1991 Toronto, Toronto 1 & 2 2016, Toronto 2022
Along the lines of Canada and it's treatment of Indigenous peoples.... we're again left with two leaders who are either virtue signaling liars (Trudeau) or robotic dooshbags (Polievre).
Also interesting is the contrast of two leaders / parties and their solutions to problems using a socialist model (Trudeau) and a capitalist model (Polievre). To that point, I'm not a believer in either solution as both don't seem to work historically.
Polievre in this conference remarkably suggests that what is going to help Indigenous people is a better economy and less government red tape... which of course is not defined in any way shape or form. This is the same argument he makes for solving housing. What he failed to comment on and what he got called out for ... is his lack of recognizing our past. And I mean.... truly if he suggests that the solution is that resources taken or used on Indigenous land goes back into their communities.... well.... first I don't believe him and second... doesn't that kind of mean our entire country? To me it was completely tone deaf... and will likely set him up for failure should he be elected.
To break it down into crayons... to me he sounded like he was saying: 'Don't look to us to solve your problems... we're going to give you the resources to solve your own problems..' Meanwhile.. the problem is that the government smashed the shit out of their home, and instead of lending a hand to rebuild.... they just provide a bunch of shovels and mortar and say 'you're welcome.'
So it seems a journalist borderline stalked Trudeau while Justin was/is vacationing to ambush interview the PM. Not cool, in my opinion, it’s right up there with protesting outside a politician’s private residence.
I continue to support ambush interviews when officials are “on duty” so to speak, but this crossed the line for me.
And credit to Trudeau, he engaged with the guy for a few minutes and didn’t just have his security detail shuffle the guy away (admittedly that was somewhat pragmatic to avoid the headline about heavy-handed security). I don’t agree with some of what Trudeau said but I absolutely agree that he (or whoever occupies the office) is absolutely entitled to his personal space and time. It has also been a working vacation due to the wildfires in Alberta.
I haven’t watched the video in the link but did read an account of the encounter (can’t find the link now, apologies).
Again more geared towards Ontarians... but what are thoughts on this? A few of my takeaways:
1. that money on helicopters is just silly. In this story alone... our dumbass premiere has already outlined what the problem is.. the bail system. So how does throwing over $100 million at helicopters help that?! Also... the cost of the helicopters is nowhere near accurate... you have to factor in pilots, fuel, maintenance, etc. This is a huge cost to taxpayers.
2. judicial impartiality ... while important, I also have to wonder.... well.... we elect our politicians to pursue change as it's needed... and while he's a dumbass.. he makes a good point about bail. I just think in this case, we need to hear the other side of the argument as to why so many criminals are being released.
Toronto 2000
Buffalo, Phoenix, Toronto 2003
Boston I&II 2004
Kitchener, Hamilton, London, Montreal, Ottawa, Toronto 2005
Toronto I&II, Las Vegas 2006
Chicago Lollapalooza 2007
Toronto, Seattle I&II, Vancouver, Philly I,II,III,IV 2009
Cleveland, Buffalo 2010
Toronto I&II 2011
Buffalo 2013 Toronto I&II 2016 10C: 220xxx
Again more geared towards Ontarians... but what are thoughts on this? A few of my takeaways:
1. that money on helicopters is just silly. In this story alone... our dumbass premiere has already outlined what the problem is.. the bail system. So how does throwing over $100 million at helicopters help that?! Also... the cost of the helicopters is nowhere near accurate... you have to factor in pilots, fuel, maintenance, etc. This is a huge cost to taxpayers.
2. judicial impartiality ... while important, I also have to wonder.... well.... we elect our politicians to pursue change as it's needed... and while he's a dumbass.. he makes a good point about bail. I just think in this case, we need to hear the other side of the argument as to why so many criminals are being released.
Re: $100 million+ for police helicopters, that's ridiculous. I agree that our premier is a dumbass.... I'll add that he's incompetent and progressively corrupt.
You'd be hard pressed to find major decisions that this provincial government has made over the past 6 years that haven't been controversial and flat out stupid/irresponsible.
What's taking the RCMP investigation into the Green Belt Scandal so long? Between The Narwhal's and the Toronto Star's investigative reporting and the Auditor General's report, could there be a corruption case that is any more of a layup? What is the always accountable and transparent RCMP doing?
Western democracies are in a bad state right now due to all their crappy leaders, and lack of accountability.
On another tangent..... It's amazing how many of these crappy elected officials fail upwards, and once they remove themselves from politics, they wind up on some board of trustees, or as a consultant for who knows what making north of $150k per year.
Comments
10-30-1991 Toronto, Toronto 1 & 2 2016, Toronto 2022
Just now starting to dish out the 23 billion dollars for millenial foster care kids they took and assimilated or denied/delayed social services.
I'm a little tired to go into it but I'm sure you could research these first nation lawsuits to start.
I'm pretty sure all the people that are in jail that are indigenous aren't thriving and repopulating and the fastest growing group of incarcerated people are young FNIM girls
Systemic racism.
Shouldn't always be the first nation person telling everybody else what the hell is up. you guys are supposed to do your part too.
Unfortunately I still have to disagree with your view that a genocide is ongoing. Outside of the systematic racism that you mentioned, virtually everything else are acts of the past and not currently happening. If I examine government policy, your culture is frequently celebrated and acknowledged and there are (as I understand it) many programs meant to support the First Nations people (effectiveness obviously open for discussion).
More generally I hope I have never denied that abuses and discrimination have been a large part of the First Nations story and don’t deny that there is still a debt that needs to be paid by Canada. What I would love to see is the involved parties seriously working towards a lasting solution instead of the random patchwork of measures that I see.
A large part of my disagreement stems from 2 factors: the selective readings of history and the liberal use of the word genocide. As I discovered the people of the past are being accused of something that hadn’t yet been conceived (for right or wrong) since the word genocide was created until 1944. I wouldn’t feel it fair if the people of the future judge me guilty of a crime that was in fact common practice for the time I lived in.
10-30-1991 Toronto, Toronto 1 & 2 2016, Toronto 2022
10-30-1991 Toronto, Toronto 1 & 2 2016, Toronto 2022
Along the lines of Canada and it's treatment of Indigenous peoples.... we're again left with two leaders who are either virtue signaling liars (Trudeau) or robotic dooshbags (Polievre).
Also interesting is the contrast of two leaders / parties and their solutions to problems using a socialist model (Trudeau) and a capitalist model (Polievre). To that point, I'm not a believer in either solution as both don't seem to work historically.
Polievre in this conference remarkably suggests that what is going to help Indigenous people is a better economy and less government red tape... which of course is not defined in any way shape or form. This is the same argument he makes for solving housing. What he failed to comment on and what he got called out for ... is his lack of recognizing our past. And I mean.... truly if he suggests that the solution is that resources taken or used on Indigenous land goes back into their communities.... well.... first I don't believe him and second... doesn't that kind of mean our entire country? To me it was completely tone deaf... and will likely set him up for failure should he be elected.
To break it down into crayons... to me he sounded like he was saying: 'Don't look to us to solve your problems... we're going to give you the resources to solve your own problems..' Meanwhile.. the problem is that the government smashed the shit out of their home, and instead of lending a hand to rebuild.... they just provide a bunch of shovels and mortar and say 'you're welcome.'
Buffalo, Phoenix, Toronto 2003
Boston I&II 2004
Kitchener, Hamilton, London, Montreal, Ottawa, Toronto 2005
Toronto I&II, Las Vegas 2006
Chicago Lollapalooza 2007
Toronto, Seattle I&II, Vancouver, Philly I,II,III,IV 2009
Cleveland, Buffalo 2010
Toronto I&II 2011
Buffalo 2013
Toronto I&II 2016
10C: 220xxx
10-30-1991 Toronto, Toronto 1 & 2 2016, Toronto 2022
Therefore, ongoing.
The number of incarcerated Indigenous people are higher than other Canadians - same thing about kids being taken from their families. The latter is presently being addressed with new indigenous government agency over our children and paying off 40 grand each for those who suffered from Indigenous Service Canada removing kids off reserve, etc (class action grew to include off reserve and other poor/delayed/non-existent social services).
You are right the residential schools were in the past. Canada was hoping to be a leader on human rights. I know our BC educational system has new standards (standard 19) for teachers to incorporate FNIM teachings. One out of 10 Indigenous people will receive a tertiary education compared to four of 10 of their Canadian peers.
Whether you want to call this genocide or not, it's ongoing.
I didn't even bring up our healthcare system. Many of those workers are learning to treat us better. My sister got hit on her bike by a car yesterday. The ambulance didn't take her to the hospital. My mom had to take her (bloodied head injury, bruises, and broken collarbone) to the hospital. An Indigenous patient navigator (a job which I once applied for) had to get the nurse to take action, make diagnostic orders, so that might sister would receive proper treatment.
I have personal anecdotes within my immediate family for each one of these atrocities. In the past, my ass.
10-30-1991 Toronto, Toronto 1 & 2 2016, Toronto 2022
It sounds like your sister’s accident was quite serious and I just want to wish her well.
10-30-1991 Toronto, Toronto 1 & 2 2016, Toronto 2022
Again, I truly hope your sister recovers fully.
10-30-1991 Toronto, Toronto 1 & 2 2016, Toronto 2022
I continue to support ambush interviews when officials are “on duty” so to speak, but this crossed the line for me.
And credit to Trudeau, he engaged with the guy for a few minutes and didn’t just have his security detail shuffle the guy away (admittedly that was somewhat pragmatic to avoid the headline about heavy-handed security). I don’t agree with some of what Trudeau said but I absolutely agree that he (or whoever occupies the office) is absolutely entitled to his personal space and time. It has also been a working vacation due to the wildfires in Alberta.
I haven’t watched the video in the link but did read an account of the encounter (can’t find the link now, apologies).
https://torontosun.com/news/batras-burning-questions-determined-journalist-catches-up-with-trudeau-at-tofino-beach
10-30-1991 Toronto, Toronto 1 & 2 2016, Toronto 2022
Again more geared towards Ontarians... but what are thoughts on this? A few of my takeaways:
1. that money on helicopters is just silly. In this story alone... our dumbass premiere has already outlined what the problem is.. the bail system. So how does throwing over $100 million at helicopters help that?! Also... the cost of the helicopters is nowhere near accurate... you have to factor in pilots, fuel, maintenance, etc. This is a huge cost to taxpayers.
2. judicial impartiality ... while important, I also have to wonder.... well.... we elect our politicians to pursue change as it's needed... and while he's a dumbass.. he makes a good point about bail. I just think in this case, we need to hear the other side of the argument as to why so many criminals are being released.
Buffalo, Phoenix, Toronto 2003
Boston I&II 2004
Kitchener, Hamilton, London, Montreal, Ottawa, Toronto 2005
Toronto I&II, Las Vegas 2006
Chicago Lollapalooza 2007
Toronto, Seattle I&II, Vancouver, Philly I,II,III,IV 2009
Cleveland, Buffalo 2010
Toronto I&II 2011
Buffalo 2013
Toronto I&II 2016
10C: 220xxx
You'd be hard pressed to find major decisions that this provincial government has made over the past 6 years that haven't been controversial and flat out stupid/irresponsible.
What's taking the RCMP investigation into the Green Belt Scandal so long? Between The Narwhal's and the Toronto Star's investigative reporting and the Auditor General's report, could there be a corruption case that is any more of a layup? What is the always accountable and transparent RCMP doing?
Western democracies are in a bad state right now due to all their crappy leaders, and lack of accountability.
On another tangent..... It's amazing how many of these crappy elected officials fail upwards, and once they remove themselves from politics, they wind up on some board of trustees, or as a consultant for who knows what making north of $150k per year.
Have a nice week